Do you believe in macroevolution?

[Colin]

Macroevolution: major evolutionary transition from one type of organism to another occurring at the level of the species and higher taxa.

I've seen members go through evolutionary transition from newbies to the level of APS expert in less than 6 months!!! so +1 for macroevolution

 

[jinjajoe]

I reckon the the all seeing creator must have been a very evolved individual indeed........

I havn't read every page if words to this effect have already been said !!!!!!!!

 

[Bluetongue1]

.... Just think we should get back on the right topic. creationest will never agree fully with evolution and vice versa, so its always a loosing battle, and gets no where.

I totally agree. A bit like the old philosophers joke....
Two philosophers were walking down the street to where their cars were parked. A little ways up ahead, two women in adjacent yards were heavily involved in an argument. Both philosophers were observing the proceedings as they walked past. One philosopher then turned to the other and said: "Of course, you realise they will never agree, don't you?" The other philosopher, reflecting on the brevity of their exposure to the argument, enquired: "And why do you say that?" To which his fellow philosopher replied: "It's obvious! They are arguing from different premises."

Blue

 

[Australis]

Anyone with decent example of fast speciation?

Main local case im familiar with is the intermittent land bridge from mainland Australia to Tasmania caused allopatric speciation in a crab.. this represents a speciation event over a miniscule amount of time.. something in the order of 20,000 years. In the context of geological time 20,000yrs is really the blink of an eye.

I vaguely recall another example of speciation observed over a period of decades in a bird sparked by changes in its "song".. but i cant recall the details..

(P.s, Fruit flies etc are boring )

 

[dragonlover1]

OK...who are the two people that voted it doesn't occur? Fair enough if you don't believe it, but please put forward your reasoning, I would actually be interested. I like to have my views challenged.

And wright, that's very good reasoning, but the same people who don't believe in evolution are very often the same people who believe God popped out the world in 7 days, about 6,000 years ago, so saying 'small changes add up over billions of years' really doesn't work for them.

there are some people who,no matter how much proof you put in front of them will refuse to believe

 

[snakeluvver]

Well, I haven't read through the thread but I thought Id add my thoughts.
I believe in macroevolution, and I think its impossible to not believe in at least some sort of evolution as there is so much proof out there. Just look at BHP's with their "spurs", and the uncanny similarities between humans and apes. Thats because we are (or at least evolved from) apes.

 

[dragonlover1]

Dammit i said contraction where i should have said abreviation! Schooling FAIL! Lucky i'm only a year one teacher!

no wonder our kids are failing,even teachers can't spell

Oh Jeebus Gordo, I'm so sorry but... it's abbreviation! :lol:

EDIT: Just occurred to me, I've been blatering on completely off topic. I suppose I've addressed the evolution of language, if that counts.

"blatering"?

 

[waruikazi]

no wonder our kids are failing,even teachers can't spell



"blatering"?

Maybe your kids are failing.

 

[dragonlover1]

Haha I'm not an English teacher, therefore I'll stick to socially acceptable colloquialisms.

Man this WHOLE thread is just people trying to correct themselves! What's the poll standing at? I can't see it on my phone

it seems like back in 5th grade english with the teacher telling the whole class everything you did wrong

 

[CrystalMoon]

it seems like back in 5th grade english with the teacher telling the whole class everything you did wrong

Aaawww never mind, I do apologize frequently for my seemingly inadequate intelligence when joining in on a thread to those who "appear" to be farrrr more edumacated lol we all carnt be as purrrrfect as the smarties lol I must admit I love people guiding the thread back to topic(I am known to veer off course lol) because in all honesty I dont really give a rat's bottom about spelling or sentence construction and sometimes the corrections detract from the thread(sometimes it is more entertaining too lol) Eeerrrr yessss Macroevolutionnnnn I believes sistuhs I believes heh heh heh heh

 

[Just_Plain_Nuts]

Did the creator create just cells or cells and atoms as well?

I use the word atoms fairly loosely here, because we can see cells, but not atoms - despite me actually taking a photograph and printing it out of a rubidium atom at the University of Otago.

Using some fantastic laser set up (laser cooling) - unfortunately I was so awe struck that I wasn't listening to how it all worked - so laser cooling - you could isolate a single rubidium atom for manipulation!

Amazing aye?

Well - from what I saw on my print out was a fuzzy white splodge on a noisy background. But the fact we were talking in micro kelvin was just one of the most amazing moments of my life... (before you say I have no life.... have you ever taken a photo of a rubidium atom?).

So - while we didn't create it - we're getting darn close (I wanted to say darn tooting) to manipulating single atoms and then in the room next door (at Otago Uni), around 200,000 atoms at any one time!

Amazing???

I think so!

So - can a creationist, or someone in the know please tell me - did the creator create atoms as well as cells? Or were the atoms already there and were put into a jig saw puzzle of sorts to the amazing complexity we talk of today?

Thought I better link to the page:

27 September 2010 Media Release, University of Otago, New Zealand (there's a photo of the rubidium atom there too - not my one (I call it mine) but one that they isolated recently)

It's funny when people of limited knowledge try to use information and claim to understand it...haha. Electron tweezers have been able to hold and manipulate single atoms for...over 20 years or so. I actually had the chance to go and see an electron microscope at University of Qld back in like 93....awesome stuff. Anyway IBM where amongst the first to do it making an IBM logo made of individual atoms as the dots of the letters..IBM Celebrates 20 Years Since First Manipulating an Atom | Singularity Hub
It's just a breakthrough that they are now able to manipulate Rubidium because of it's uses in quantum computers...which I won't even get into because it will make all our brains hurt.

And yea God created all the cells and atoms from scratch, He does not operate within our confines of science and logic..

So how many people do you think have been alive in all time to obtain our current population? (this is to the other extreme of the 2 or now 7 animals)

Some believe as little as 13 billion (you know - at least twice the population we have now) to 125 billion... Quite some variation. But how can we tell?

If the great flood came along - wasn't it to wipe out all evil? Which means Noah therefore reproduced rather quickly with his one, or 6 other mates... Either way - he had a good excuse for some romantic lovin'.

Or - were some people spared? Did Noah have room on his ark for a few people who he had become acquainted with and thought were jolly nice people that didn't deserve to be drowned?

We do know in order to have the diversity we have today we'd have had to have a fair whack of time... Perhaps a lot more than 6,000 years (incidentally, if the 7 days wasn't literal, is the 6,000 years equally as not literal too?).

So - if a creationists idea of 7 days was much much much longer than an earthly 7 days... Then a creationists idea of 6,000 years would have to be equally long - giving us a date of roughly.....??? Should we just say 4.5 billion years (whether I am right or wrong is insignificant - 6,000 just can't be right for there to have been between 13 billion and 125 billion people on earth!)

Sorry if it seems I'm picking on you slimey but you are wrong again here. Do the maths and you will see that even with conservative figures of procreation there is easily enough time to repopulate the world , even with much higher figures than your high figure of 125 billion. You have to remember it's exponential growth. It's like the old story with the peasant who beat the chinese ruler at chess and asked for his prize to be grains of rice equal to the number achieved when you start at one and double it for every chess square. It starts small but soon ends up massive. The ruler was not able to fulfill his obligation with all the rice of his kingdom. Now look at the number of generations since then and do the maths. P.S Noah took his wife and three sons and their wifes on the Ark

 

[slim6y]

It's funny when people of limited knowledge try to use information and claim to understand it...haha. Electron tweezers have been able to hold and manipulate single atoms for...over 20 years or so. I actually had the chance to go and see an electron microscope at University of Qld back in like 93....awesome stuff. Anyway IBM where amongst the first to do it making an IBM logo made of individual atoms as the dots of the letters..IBM Celebrates 20 Years Since First Manipulating an Atom | Singularity Hub
It's just a breakthrough that they are now able to manipulate Rubidium because of it's uses in quantum computers...which I won't even get into because it will make all our brains hurt.

And yea God created all the cells and atoms from scratch, He does not operate within our confines of science and logic..



Sorry if it seems I'm picking on you slimey but you are wrong again here. Do the maths and you will see that even with conservative figures of procreation there is easily enough time to repopulate the world , even with much higher figures than your high figure of 125 billion. You have to remember it's exponential growth. It's like the old story with the peasant who beat the chinese ruler at chess and asked for his prize to be grains of rice equal to the number achieved when you start at one and double it for every chess square. It starts small but soon ends up massive. The ruler was not able to fulfill his obligation with all the rice of his kingdom. Now look at the number of generations since then and do the maths. P.S Noah took his wife and three sons and their wifes on the Ark

I'm going to point out something that even the simplest of people could understand.... I'm NOT wrong... I RESTATED evidential facts from OTHER sources!

If that information is wrong... Go tell that to the people who spend their entire LIVES on working this stuff out - you're not picking on me... You're picking on THEM!!!

As for the laser tweezers - so what if it's been around for 20 years - it's not biggie if it had been around for 7 days - just like things you believe took 7 days. Quantum computing isn't my thing - it didn't mean I wasn't interested in isolating my very own rubidium atom... I named it slimmy....

As far as procreation of the world goes:

How Many People Have Ever Lived on Earth? - Population Reference Bureau

If you don't like the fact I found this without using my brain - then tell the author I've mislead the hoards of APSers that read my dribble in the first place!

 

[Just_Plain_Nuts]

I'm going to point out something that even the simplest of people could understand.... I'm NOT wrong... I RESTATED evidential facts from OTHER sources!

If that information is wrong... Go tell that to the people who spend their entire LIVES on working this stuff out - you're not picking on me... You're picking on THEM!!!

As for the laser tweezers - so what if it's been around for 20 years - it's not biggie if it had been around for 7 days - just like things you believe took 7 days. Quantum computing isn't my thing - it didn't mean I wasn't interested in isolating my very own rubidium atom... I named it slimmy....

As far as procreation of the world goes:

How Many People Have Ever Lived on Earth? - Population Reference Bureau

If you don't like the fact I found this without using my brain - then tell the author I've mislead the hoards of APSers that read my dribble in the first place!

No you didnt restate evidential facts at all...You read something that you didnt understand and tried to use it to argue....not sure exactly...What they said isnt wrong, you have just tried to use it in an irrelevant way.
With your procreation link, once again i'm not argueing against what they said( although I dont know how they are guessing world populations in a time period that we arent even sure people existed, but anyway) I was not arguing that it's around 125 billion people ever on the earth I was merely pointing out that 6000 years is ample time for that amount of people to be created from the humble beginnings of 2 or 8

Sorry Surroundx for leading this topic astray I can't help myself when people say things without basis...

 

[Wrightpython]

If everything must have a beginning and an end and everything is created then who by chance created God. God must have been created by a magnificent being of great knowledge to produce a being capable of producing the earth and the heavens. But then who created Gods creator once again must have been an even wiser and knowledgable being to produce a being capable of producing a being capable of creting the earth and the heavens and so on and so on. Or was it man who created God this man must have been wise and knowledgable in his own right.
Joke for ya Irish Catholic man goes up to the church and asks if the church will bury his dog the catholic preist says where a church we dont bury dogs why dont ya try the orange folk up there on the hill, as irishman starts walking away he murmurs ive got 500 quid ill give it to the prodestants i spose, the catholic priest wanting the 500 quid runs after him and says why didnt you tell me the dog was catholic

 

[Just_Plain_Nuts]

If everything must have a beginning and an end and everything is created then who by chance created God. God must have been created by a magnificent being of great knowledge to produce a being capable of producing the earth and the heavens. But then who created Gods creator once again must have been an even wiser and knowledgable being to produce a being capable of producing a being capable of creting the earth and the heavens and so on and so on. Or was it man who created God this man must have been wise and knowledgable in his own right.
Joke for ya Irish Catholic man goes up to the church and asks if the church will bury his dog the catholic preist says where a church we dont bury dogs why dont ya try the orange folk up there on the hill, as irishman starts walking away he murmurs ive got 500 quid ill give it to the prodestants i spose, the catholic priest wanting the 500 quid runs after him and says why didnt you tell me the dog was catholic

No one or nothing created God, he always was. As I have said repeatedly He is not confined by our laws of physics nor our time. This is impossible for our brains to fathom, our intelligence certainly has limits. Have you ever tried to truely understand infinity as in the edges of space are expanding infinitely. Then tried to envisage what is beyond this outer edge that it's expanding into....you will find that you can't because terms like infinity are beyond our comprehension...as is God

 

[slim6y]

show me the math baby!!!

(I've said that once before)

I'd like you JPN to elucidate the math and PROVE your point that the world could be populated within 6,000 years.

Start off with two....

Show me population rates, death rates, life expectancy.... So on... Show me that the guy I showed you is wrong... and don't ever assume I didn't understand what I read... So don't patronise me with your god 'stuff' because in reality - the stuff I read, that I understood, that I took on board... wasn't just my way of thinking... but something that is quite plausible... Plus, you'll not be able to prove it wrong... nor will you be able to justify your nonsense....

So - the floor is yours - start a new thread to prove your mathematical ability about a year 10 level and show me that the world could be populated in 6,000 years... Oh, and I promise you I'll get 2 math professors to look at your working to verify it's possible... Do it in PM if you don't want to embarrass yourself too.

 

[waruikazi]

No one or nothing created God, he always was. As I have said repeatedly He is not confined by our laws of physics nor our time. This is impossible for our brains to fathom, our intelligence certainly has limits. Have you ever tried to truely understand infinity as in the edges of space are expanding infinitely. Then tried to envisage what is beyond this outer edge that it's expanding into....you will find that you can't because terms like infinity are beyond our comprehension...as is God

Did you know that some infinities are bigger than others? Just sayin...

 

[slim6y]

You should probably read Achilles and the Quantum Universe - it can help you understand the world is over 6,000 years old... And the current ways of thinking of the word infinity and what we believe our universe is...

Not saying it's gospel, like the bible of course... Just saying it's one way of thinking... And in my view... A good way!

Read it - or are you worried you'll understand it and it'll open your mind?

Also read a book called Bad Science.... That might help you understand whether or not your way of thinking is considered scientific or not....

 

[junglepython2]

Did you know that some infinities are bigger than others? Just sayin...

You watch too many SBS docos.

 

[Just_Plain_Nuts]

show me the math baby!!!

(I've said that once before)

I'd like you JPN to elucidate the math and PROVE your point that the world could be populated within 6,000 years.

Start off with two....

Show me population rates, death rates, life expectancy.... So on... Show me that the guy I showed you is wrong... and don't ever assume I didn't understand what I read... So don't patronise me with your god 'stuff' because in reality - the stuff I read, that I understood, that I took on board... wasn't just my way of thinking... but something that is quite plausible... Plus, you'll not be able to prove it wrong... nor will you be able to justify your nonsense....

So - the floor is yours - start a new thread to prove your mathematical ability about a year 10 level and show me that the world could be populated in 6,000 years... Oh, and I promise you I'll get 2 math professors to look at your working to verify it's possible... Do it in PM if you don't want to embarrass yourself too.

haha sure but I cant tonight I have too much work to do first