Do you believe in macroevolution?

[redlittlejim]

Oh - wait - I thought he meant that the conversation was created - OMG... he meant HUMANS??? ARRRRRRRG!!! I liked it accidentally... Help... Oh, I feel so dirty now....

I thought he said the conversation evolved and the conversation was originally created (with Surroundx being our creator and lord of this thread)... I didn't think he meant that all humans were created... GOD!!

And now I use GOD in a slang way too... and I don't even believe... EEEEEEP!

I'm digging a deeper hole...

Incidentally... Still waiting on results that the world could have been populated in 6,000 years from just 2 people with an estimated 105 billion people to have lived to get us to this current population - using at least some facts that could be gained from various sources.

almost thought there was a conversion there when i saw you like my post

 

[scorps]

This is a subject I am very interested in, I come from catholic parents and went to catholic schools and high schools, church weekly growing up and was taught in school about creationism.

As I got older and able to develop my own opinions I found myself doubting everything I was taught as a child.

I still want to believe that when my life is over I will see loved ones again but I don't see the logic at all in creationism, I am very open minded and believe everyone can have there own opinions but I just can't put my head around how its believable

 

[Surroundx]

This is a subject I am very interested in, I come from catholic parents and went to catholic schools and high schools, church weekly growing up and was taught in school about creationism.

As I got older and able to develop my own opinions I found myself doubting everything I was taught as a child.

I still want to believe that when my life is over I will see loved ones again but I don't see the logic at all in creationism, I am very open minded and believe everyone can have there own opinions but I just can't put my head around how its believable

Thanks for contributing your views mate Can I ask if you believe in macroevolution? And if not, perhaps give your reason/s?

 

[scorps]

Yes I do, I fully believe in evolution although I like to think that something originally created the start. What it was no one has a clue but something had to start some where.

I have met very open minded creationist and very close minded (same as evolutionists)
Some people like to share there opinion with out listening to others.

I had to work with a lady once that was a hard core creationist and basically tried to force it on to everyone, her beliefs where that strong she believed dinosaurs did not exist, the fossils where fake and carbon dating is a government conspiracy, I can't deal with people like that

 

[slim6y]

almost thought there was a conversion there when i saw you like my post

You want to know what's funny with that - I thought EXACTLY the same thing... For a minute there I also thought you had a sense of humour... Alas... I was so mislead

The way I saw it - so clearly, your post suggested that the conversation had evolved and was also 'created'. And I thought - yay - see, creation is true - but when we did it! And all of a sudden after I liked it, and a few more comments sprung up... I got that horrible sinking feeling - that feeling when you look for the unlike button only to notice it wasn't there... I nearly considered closing my account and asking for a new user name.... Eventually slim6y would have just been a whisper in an APS wind....

Nice to see you still alive Ben! Long time no hear! Been missing ya bro! You still in the same place?

We all now bow to Surroundx our lord and creator of the post.... Ummmm... Which are our holy days again? I plan on calling up work and telling them that my new religion forbids me to work on a Monday.

I've said this before on here as well - it's a creationist theory from one of my favourite movies... A movie I have already mentioned - From a man who supposedly died in New Zealand... Jeff Goldblum:

"God creates dinosaurs. God destroys dinosaurs. God creates Man. Man destroys God. Man creates dinosaurs."

Not sure what Jeff's actual views on this are, but I am guessing it's not from a creationist point of view....

 

[redlittlejim]

You want to know what's funny with that - I thought EXACTLY the same thing... For a minute there I also thought you had a sense of humour... Alas... I was so mislead

I most defiantly do not have a sense of humor... maybe I will evolve with one!

Hey Ben, very nice of you to join this debate

 

[Just_Plain_Nuts]

so what you're saying is that despite having twice the amount of time we've only produced two thirds of the number alive before the flood.. you have to realise how unbelievably improbable that sounds right..

You probably arent aware that in the times before the great flood people lived to close to 1000 years which would obviously skew these results a lot

 

[scorps]

Theres no debate, I'm right

 

[Just_Plain_Nuts]

show me the math baby!!!

(I've said that once before)

I'd like you JPN to elucidate the math and PROVE your point that the world could be populated within 6,000 years.

Start off with two....

Show me population rates, death rates, life expectancy.... So on... Show me that the guy I showed you is wrong... and don't ever assume I didn't understand what I read... So don't patronise me with your god 'stuff' because in reality - the stuff I read, that I understood, that I took on board... wasn't just my way of thinking... but something that is quite plausible... Plus, you'll not be able to prove it wrong... nor will you be able to justify your nonsense....

So - the floor is yours - start a new thread to prove your mathematical ability about a year 10 level and show me that the world could be populated in 6,000 years... Oh, and I promise you I'll get 2 math professors to look at your working to verify it's possible... Do it in PM if you don't want to embarrass yourself too.

I have very little time at the moment but this is what i have come up with.
The question is can the claimed(by slimey) total people ever born of 125 billion be achieved in the 4316 years since the great flood and starting with the 8 people that were on the ark.

Using a Malthusian growth model

Xt=Xo(1+g)^t
where
Xt is the total number born
Xo is the original number you started with
g is the growth rate % per year
and t is the total number of years

gives us
Xt= 8(1+0.02)^4316

[h=2]Xt=1.05058528 × 10[SUP]38[/SUP][/h]
more than enough to meet the requirements, even if you reduce the population rate to 0.01 or less
I used the growth rate of 0.02 because it is around what we currently have but it is rapidly dropping and has done so for some time. The birth rate in ancient times would have been considerably higher given their mortality rate and the need for heirs to support them.

Note I am not claiming population figures, nor life expectancy , nor mortality....just the ease at which the figure of 125 billion people born ever could be achieved in such a short time. I would not be arrogant enough to claim to deduce what these figures would have been in a time that we know little about.

Alright let the slander begin

I cannot guarantee my maths to be perfect , it has been a long time since i have done any. I also cannot guarantee that I will have much time to rebuke all your coming judgements either. I have a life outside internet forums and darn if it's not a real busy one.

I have met very open minded creationist and very close minded (same as evolutionists)
Some people like to share there opinion with out listening to others.

I had to work with a lady once that was a hard core creationist and basically tried to force it on to everyone, her beliefs where that strong she believed dinosaurs did not exist, the fossils where fake and carbon dating is a government conspiracy, I can't deal with people like that

I don't agree with people like this either, and yes I do believe in dinosaurs they just didnt exist as long ago as people think

 

[junglepython2]

You probably arent aware that in the times before the great flood people lived to close to 1000 years which would obviously skew these results a lot

I thought that was a joke until I read some creationists sites and found out you are serious! That aside do creationists believe that the universe is 6000 years old or only the Earth?

 

[Just_Plain_Nuts]

i would say the universe , although it doesnt elaborate much as far as I know. Originally Adam and Eve were immortal until the apple incident which was supposed to be punishable by death , instead He took pity on them and shortened their lives to under 1000 years and made life much harder too. After mankind further dissappointed Him and lived like scumbags (people lived with very poor morals), and the rise of Nephilim caused God to destroy the earth and start again and reduce our life span at around the same time. Must have thought we had too much time on our hands to get up to no good.

 

[junglepython2]

i would say the universe , although it doesnt elaborate much as far as I know. Originally Adam and Eve were immortal until the apple incident which was supposed to be punishable by death , instead He took pity on them and shortened their lives to under 1000 years and made life much harder too. After mankind further dissappointed Him and lived like scumbags (people lived with very poor morals), and the rise of Nephilim caused God to destroy the earth and start again and reduce our life span at around the same time. Must have thought we had too much time on our hands to get up to no good.

So how do you explain seeing stars and galaxy's millions of light years away? Do you subscribe to the idea that the speed of light is not constant and has been slowing down or that God created the Universe with an appearance of age?

 

[Just_Plain_Nuts]

So how do you explain seeing stars and galaxy's millions of light years away? Do you subscribe to the idea that the speed of light is not constant and has been slowing down or that God created the Universe with an appearance of age?

You are assuming that they were here to begin with....He may have done just that...afterall look at the extent of detail He used for everything else...He was quite proud of himself when He finished His work

 

[junglepython2]

You are assuming that they were here to begin with....He may have done just that...afterall look at the extent of detail He used for everything else...He was quite proud of himself when He finished His work

So when we see a star explode that is a billion light years away, we are in fact seeing an illusion or deception from God as that star never really existed as it died well before creation. In fact all of the universe which is more than 6000 light years away (just about all of it) doesn’t exist and is merely an illusion. He certainly works in mysterious ways….

 

[carterd]

Evolution is a theory, and always has and always will be.
Charles Darwin denounced his theories of Evolution on his death bed.
I believe in natural selection, as in, survival of the fittest.
Natural Laws are in place and don't change. No evolve. eg (MacroEvolution).
The only true Science is Maths.
I'm not Religious, I just see what obvious and don't believe in unproven theories.

 

[Klaery]

Evolution is a theory, and always has and always will be.
Charles Darwin denounced his theories of Evolution on his death bed.
I believe in natural selection, as in, survival of the fittest.
Natural Laws are in place and don't change. No evolve. eg (MacroEvolution).
The only true Science is Maths.
I'm not Religious, I just see what obvious and don't believe in unproven theories.

Like creation? And like Darwin saying anything of the sort on his death bed? Yeah you are a real stickler for evidence...

One has been proven extremely improbable and the other completely wrong. I'll let you figure that out. Maybe check some of that evidence..

 

[Surroundx]

Evolution is a theory, and always has and always will be.

I think your getting confused. "Theory" in a scientific sense, as it is used in the context of evolution, does not refer to anything like is being referred to in the common sense. Evolution is a fact.

Charles Darwin denounced his theories of Evolution on his death bed.

That's a myth. There is no evidence that Darwin converted on his death bed. But even if he did, how does that change anything?

I believe in natural selection, as in, survival of the fittest.

Natural selection includes a lot more than survival of the fittest, which is a tautology. Darwin only introduced it into Origin in later editions at the suggestion of Wallace who felt that "natural selection" had a tendency to confuse people. Natural selection includes sexual selection, viability selection, fecundity selection, directional selection, stabilizing selection etc.

Natural Laws are in place and don't change. No evolve. eg (MacroEvolution).

How do the natural laws prevent macroevolution?

The only true Science is Maths.

Can you define "science" then?

I'm not Religious, I just see what obvious and don't believe in unproven theories.

"Unproven theories" is a tautology. I'm sure you believe a lot of things which have not been proven. Can you prove that macroevolution does not occur? Yet you believe it anyway.

 

[-Peter]

I was on the phone the other day to a mate who told me he had found major flaws in Maxwell's Electromagnetic Wave Theory then the line suddenly went dead.

 

[Just_Plain_Nuts]

So when we see a star explode that is a billion light years away, we are in fact seeing an illusion or deception from God as that star never really existed as it died well before creation. In fact all of the universe which is more than 6000 light years away (just about all of it) doesn’t exist and is merely an illusion. He certainly works in mysterious ways….

One of the only valid arguments I've heard, I'll give you credit for that one....leave it with me, I will give it some thought and research

 

[Surroundx]

One of the only valid arguments I've heard, I'll give you credit for that one....leave it with me, I will give it some thought and research

I would of thought that since you believe the universe to be 6,000 years old, that you would also believe that the Big bang never happened. Hence, the fact that celestial objects exist more than 6,000 ly away is not a problem at all. God simply created lots of different stars all over the place, and in various stages of stellar "evolution"? Just as the surface of the Earth exhibits geological formations in various stages. There are lots of oceanic islands, but also many that are just forming now.