HELP.... My Gravid Jag Escaped

[Inkage]

I don't like the escapees odds.

 

[ShaneBlack]

I guess at the end of the day they're all just captive or pet snakes so its irrelevant as to whether they're jags or any other sort of morelia, as they're all technically exotics if they escape outside their natural home range. But on a side note...I dont understand how people can keep something that they believe isnt capable of surviving in the wild....call me old fashioned, but personally, I couldnt keep some snake that was so "wrecked" it wasnt capable of surviving in the bush. Flame away....

 

[user 23122]

Sounds like a big load of s##t to me what if a diamond with dps escapes in north Queensland and manages to breed with a coastal or a jungle Ime sure it's happened. I think we underestimate how well mother nature takes care of herself and how strong our native gene pool is. Does this neuro problem even exist in the wild. Personally I feel cane toads are our biggest threat we face the little f#####s are everywhere. This neuro theory is just another one of our many possible problems we face along with the 15 metre tsunami we are meant to cop next year on the east coast it's all crap.

 

[cement]

I am not going to get involved with this discussion again. There are certain evolutionary processes involved in a situation like this that zoologists and geneticists would be well aware of. I have taken the liberty to find some information on the Internet that would enlighten the majority of you about what exactly happens to a wild population if new alleles are introduced to it. You can read the below to familiarise yourselves with some of the correct terminology that zoologist and geneticists use. I would be very surprised to see if anybody posting in this thread actually took the time to read it. Here is the link to the webpage

Population Genetics - Biology Encyclopedia - body, examples, human, process, different, chromosomes, DNA, blood

And a few more links:

Basics of population genetics
Introduction to Evolutionary Biology


The field of population genetics examines the amount of genetic variation within populations and the processes that influence this variation. A population is defined as a group of interbreeding individuals that exist together at the same time. Genetic variation refers to the degree of difference found among individuals, for instance in height, coat color, or other less observable traits. The particular set of genes carried by an individual is known as his or her genotype, while all the genes in a population together comprise the "gene pool."

Foundations

The foundation for population genetics was laid in 1908, when Godfrey Hardy and Wilhelm Weinberg independently published what is now known as the Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium. The "equilibrium" is a simple prediction of genotype frequencies in any given generation, and the observation that the genotype frequencies are expected to remain constant from generation to generation as long as several simple assumptions are met. This description of stasis provides a counterpoint to studies of how populations change over time.

The 1920s and 1930s witnessed the real development of population genetics, with important contributions by Ronald Fisher, Sewall Wright, and John B. S. Haldane. They, with many others, clearly established the basic processes which caused populations to change over time: selection, genetic drift, migration, and mutation. The change in the genetic makeup of a population over time, usually measured in terms of allele frequencies, is equivalent to evolutionary change. For this reason, population genetics provides the groundwork for scientists' understanding of evolution, in particular microevolution, or changes within one or several populations over a limited time span.

The questions addressed by population genetics are quite varied, but many fall within several broad categories. How much genetic variation is found in populations, and what processes govern this? How will a population change over time, and can a stable endpoint be determined? How much and why do populations of the same species differ? The answer is always cast in terms of selection, drift, mutation, migration, and the complex interplay among them. Of the four, selection and genetic drift are usually given credit as the major forces.

Selection

Simply put, selection occurs when some genotypes in the population are on average more successful in reproduction. These genotypes may survive better, produce more offspring, or be more successful in attracting mates; the alleles responsible for these traits are then passed on to offspring. There is broad theoretical consensus and abundant empirical data to suggest that selection can change populations radically and quickly. If one genetic variant, or allele, increases survivorship or fertility, selection will increase the frequency of the favored allele, and concurrently eliminate other alleles. This type of selection, called directional selection, decreases the amount of genetic variation in populations.

Alternatively, an individual carrying two different alleles for the same gene (a heterozygote) may have advantages, as exemplified by the well-known example of the sickle-cell allele in Africa, in which heterozygotes are more resistant to malaria. In this case, called overdominant selection, genetic variation is preserved in the population. Although a number of similar examples are known, directional selection is much more common than overdominant selection; this implies that the common action of selection is to decrease genetic variation within populations. It is equally clear that if different (initally similar) populations occupy different habitats, selection can create differences among populations by favoring different alleles in different areas.

Genetic Drift

Often overlooked by the layperson, genetic drift is given a place of importance in population genetics. While some analyses of genetic drift quickly become complicated, the basic process of drift is simple and involves random


Cheetahs, which have very little genetic variation, are presumed to have gone through several genetic bottlenecks.
changes in allele frequency. In sexual species, the frequency of alleles contained in the progeny may not perfectly match the frequency of the alleles contained in the parents. As an analogy, consider flipping a coin twenty times. Although one might expect ten heads and ten tails, the actual outcome may be slightly different; in this example, the outcome (progeny) does not perfectly represent the relative frequency of heads and tails (the parents).
What does this mean for populations? Start by considering neutral alleles, which have no impact on survival or reproduction. (An example is the presence or absence of a widow's peak hairline.) The frequency of a neutral allele may shift slightly between generations, sometimes increasing and sometimes decreasing. What outcomes are expected from this process? Suppose that a particular allele shifts frequency at random for a number of generations, eventually becoming very rare, with perhaps only one copy in the population. If the individual carrying this allele does not pass it on to any offspring or fails to have any offspring, the allele will be lost to the population. Once lost, the allele is gone from the population forever. In this light, drift causes the loss of genetic variation over time. All populations are subject to this process, with smaller populations more strongly affected than larger ones.

Perhaps better known than the pervasive, general effects of genetic drift are special examples of drift associated with unusually small populations. Genetic bottlenecks occur when a small number of individuals from a much larger population are the sole contributors to future generations; this occurs when a catastrophe kills most of the population, or when a few individuals start a new population in different area. Genetic bottlenecks reduce the genetic variation in the new or subsequent population relative to the old. Cheetahs, which have very little genetic variation, are presumed to have gone through several genetic bottlenecks. Occasionally, these new populations may have particular alleles that are much more common than in the original population, by chance alone. This is usually called the founder effect.

Migration and Mutation

Migration may also be important in shaping the genetic variation within populations and the differences among them. To geneticists, the word "migration" is synonymous with the term "gene flow." Immigration may change allele frequencies within a population if the immigrants differ genetically. The general effect of gene flow among populations is to make all of the populations of a species more similar. It can also restore alleles lost through genetic drift, or introduce new alleles formed by mutation in another population. Migration is often seen as the "glue" that binds the subpopulation of a species together. Emigration is not expected to change populations unless the migrants are genetically different from those that remain; this is rarely observed, so emigration is often ignored.

The last important process is mutation. Mutation is now understood in great detail at the molecular level, and consists of any change in the deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) sequence of an organism. These mutations range from single base substitutions to the deletion or addition of tens or hundreds of bases to the duplication or reorganization of entire chromosomes . Mutation is most important as the sole source of all new genetic variation, which can then be spread from the population of origin by migration. This importance should not be undervalued, although the impact of mutation on most populations is negligible at any given time. This is because mutation rates are typically very low.

Questions and Contributions

The real challenge of population genetics has been in understanding how the four processes work together to produce the observable patterns. For instance, genetic drift eliminates variation from populations, as do the most common modes of natural selection. How then can the abundance of genetic variation in the world be explained?

This question has many complicated answers, but some cases, such as the observation of deleterious alleles in humans (for example, alleles for phenylketonuria, a genetic disease), might be explained in terms of mutation and selection. Mutation adds these alleles to a population, and selection removes them; although the rate of mutation is likely to be nearly constant, the rate at which selection removes them increases as the abundance of the allele increases. This is certainly true for recessive alleles, which are only expressed when an individual has two copies. With only one, the allele remains unexpressed and therefore not selected. At some point, predictable from the mutation rate and physical consequences of the disease, the two opposing forces balance, producing the stable persistence of the disease allele at low frequency.

As a discipline, population genetics has contributed greatly to scientists' understanding of many disparate topics, including the development of resistance of insects to insecticides and of pathogenic bacteria to antibiotics, an explanation of human genetic variation like the alleles for sickle-cell anemia and blood groups, the evolutionary relationships among species, and many others. Of particular interest is the use of genetic data in conservation biology.

By definition, endangered and threatened species have reduced population sizes, making them subject to the vagaries of genetic drift and also to inbreeding. Inbreeding is mating between genetically related individuals, and often leads to inbreeding depression, a reduction of health, vigor, and fertility. Genetic drift leads to a loss of genetic variation, which limits what selection can do to produce adaptations if the environment changes. Keeping these two issues in mind, greatly reduced populations may be at increasingly greater risk for genetic reasons, leading to further declines.

SEE ALSO C ONSERVATION ; E NDANGERED S PECIES ; E VOLUTION ; E XTINCTION ; H ARDY -W EINBERG E QUILIBRIUM ; N ATURAL S ELECTION ; S EXUAL R EPRODUCTION

Paul R. Cabe

Bibliography

Gillespie, John H. Population Genetics: A Concise Guide. Baltimore, MD: Johns Hopkins University Press, 1998.

Hardy, Godfrey. "Mendelian Proportions in Mixed Populations." Science 28 (1908): 49–50.

Hartl, Daniel. A Primer of Population Genetics. Sunderland, MA: Sinauer Associates, 1999.

Hedrick, Philip W. Genetics of Populations. Boston, MA: Jones and Bartlett, 2000.

Smith, John Maynard. Evolutionary Genetics, 2nd ed. Oxford, England: Oxford University Press, 1998.

hahaha! Reminds me of an old zen saying...

"if you can't blind them with science, baffle them witha bulls hit.":lol:

The only truth that either pro jag or anti jag can say at this point is that no-one knows.
Anyone who believes that they know the answer to this question is treating themselves like an amusement park.
The only difference I can see,that jags have made to this point, as far as being different to any other subspecies released or escaped into the wild, is that we would never be in this situation at all if they hadn't been brought in.

It's now in gods hands, and time will tell.

 

[Morelia4life]

Well that is another interesting point
Some Jags overseas have displayed no symptoms at all for up to 5 years and then fallen over [so to speak]
So could these 'mutts' also be carriers but display nothing??
Does a 'mutt' still carry the same genes as a morph?
I would think it must do if its from the same parents and only one male and female were involved
Maybe 'mutts' still carry the neuro but dont display the colours??

[More internet work]

Morelia
So what was the stress factor that 'activated' the neuro in yours if you dont mind me asking?
I have heard that theory from a few places now
But most of the keepers saying it are pretty good keepers who would seldom if ever allow their animals to get stressed
If you cant remember an incident could it be that yours was just one of these 'delayed neuro' ones?

To be honest, I don't know. I got my jag on Feb. 17. I already had everything set up for him when he got here. He was fine until about 2 weeks ago or so he started roaming his cage a lot and doing the little 'backflip' things with his head. It isn't severe or anything, I jut notice him doing it from time to time. For the past couple days he has been fine. He hasn't been doing any of that, that is why I say it is slight.

did you get told by the breeder that your snake would develope nero issues?, its funny how things change depending on the snake at hand ,if i sold say a Blackheaded python that showed nero signs i would get a bad rep from all the breeders out there? but because its a Jag you get a pat on the back because its normal ?, really cant get my head around this, maybe ive been breedings snakes for way to many years and just dont fit in anymore???

When I got my Jag from the breeder, he said that it didn't show any signs and he was right. I had my jag for around 2 months before he started showing signs. Everyone knows that jags can develop neuro issues. The only thing people don't know is what causes it. I just happen to think that all jags have the neuro issue gene but it is dormant and doesn't present itself until the snake undergoes stress. Some people think that it is brought on by harsh chemicals or that the snake has issues straight out of the egg.

 

[spotlight]

this is the thing i can not get my head around! why breed or buy them if they show the nero signs? it cant be because they look good in a cage if they wave around the cage when you watch them?.
when a child is born with a defect we love that child for what he or she is ! ( but that could not be helped, as they say "it was gods will"? ),but the jag is man made and is being bred for that trait!!!.
SORRY!!!! i just dont understand???.
and everyone understand the jag escaping issue is not due to a morph mixing with the population!! its the fact of the nero issues mixing with the wild population ( who cares if a diamond gets out up north, what damage would it cause at least its healthy in body and soul).
once again im sorry i dont understand!!!!.
a quick question to all the jag keepers and breeders when your jag does the nero thing what do you think to your self " AWWW THAT IS SO CUTE!!!!!!.
the only thing that i do agree on is they are a good looking snake but is it really worth it here in Australia?

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

this is the thing i can not get my head around! why breed or buy them if they show the nero signs? it cant be because they look good in a cage if they wave around the cage when you watch them?.
when a child is born with a defect we love that child for what he or she is ! ( but that could not be helped, as they say "it was gods will"? ),but the jag is man made and is being bred for that trait!!!.
SORRY!!!! i just dont understand???.
and everyone understand the jag escaping issue is not due to a morph mixing with the population!! its the fact of the nero issues mixing with the wild population ( who cares if a diamond gets out up north, what damage would it cause at least its healthy in body and soul).
once again im sorry i dont understand!!!!.
a quick question to all the jag keepers and breeders when your jag does the nero thing what do you think to your self " AWWW THAT IS SO CUTE!!!!!!.
the only thing that i do agree on is they are a good looking snake but is it really worth it here in Australia?






9

It's clear that you don't understand! The information that I posted was copied and pasted from sources around the web. I could list hundreds of science text books that are peer reviewed by real experts in the field that contains the same information that I posted. Read the information, cross reference some of the scientific words with a good biology dictionary and try to understand these basic principles of gene flow in a population. It's not as simple as forum posters expect it to be! A few captive bred native carpet pythons released into a population of wild animals would have no effect on the current population. A few thousand released in the same area could have a more serious effect!

 

[BARRAMUNDI]

this is the thing i can not get my head around! why breed or buy them if they show the nero signs? it cant be because they look good in a cage if they wave around the cage when you watch them?.
when a child is born with a defect we love that child for what he or she is ! ( but that could not be helped, as they say "it was gods will"? ),but the jag is man made and is being bred for that trait!!!.
SORRY!!!! i just dont understand???.
and everyone understand the jag escaping issue is not due to a morph mixing with the population!! its the fact of the nero issues mixing with the wild population ( who cares if a diamond gets out up north, what damage would it cause at least its healthy in body and soul).once again im sorry i dont understand!!!!.
a quick question to all the jag keepers and breeders when your jag does the nero thing what do you think to your self " AWWW THAT IS SO CUTE!!!!!!.
the only thing that i do agree on is they are a good looking snake but is it really worth it here in Australia?
9

Its post like this above why this argument will never end. The statements and opinions within are based on zero experience and heresay amongst the anti-jag brigade......

If a JAG has shown neuro signs it does not display these signs 24/7. There are far too many anti-JAG keepers out there passing off misleading and false info regarding neuro in JAGS.

YES neuro is present in some JAGS, some severe (very very few) and some minor and some dont display it at all.

The signs may appear for a few seconds every few weeks or months even years. It is very very rare for one to display constant signs. Generally the signs (if present) occur during extreme excitement or stress. Remembering that only a very small percentage exhibit signs and the majority either never do display or display extremely minor signs. In my experience more than 95% of JAGS live completely normal and thrive in our captive environments just like any other python......

So in my experience and the numerous keepers experiences that have aquired JAGS from me, yes we do buy them and keep them becuase they look hot in our enclosures, not too mention the possibilities for new colourations and patterns through selective breeding JAGS that are above and beyond regular morelias.....

The neuro issue is part and parcel with working with this morph, however it is nowhere near as severe as some anti-jag keepers are making it out to be.........

 

[longqi]

It's clear that you don't understand! The information that I posted was copied and pasted from sources around the web. I could list hundreds of science text books that are peer reviewed by real experts in the field that contains the same information that I posted. Read the information, cross reference some of the scientific words with a good biology dictionary and try to understand these basic principles of gene flow in a population. It's not as simple as forum posters expect it to be! A few captive bred native carpet pythons released into a population of wild animals would have no effect on the current population. A few thousand released in the same area could have a more serious effect!

After getting through a surprisingly large amount of those references in some ways I must agree with you Carpet

Please correct any of this I have wrong as I am a total novice about jeans

If we take directly from those references that the best females are attracted to the best males in most species then things change dramatically
1,,A jungle Jag would usually be bigger, stronger, more attractive to local jungles??
2..Some Jags display no symptoms for up 5 years??
3..The gene may skip a generation only to return??

A young male jungle jag escapes in the Palmerston Gorge
This male is big strong and beautiful
He exhibits no signs of neuro so the very best local females cue up to meet him
This continues for 3 more years until one day he wakes up a bit under the weather

His progeny will do one of three things
They will immediately show neuro signs and die?
They will show no immediate signs and thrive with X% also being the biggest strongest and most attractive?
They will be normal looking jungles which do or dont still carry the gene??

Nature only allows X% of hatchies to survive through predation etc etc
If that X% is now further diluted by a bad gene what is the future for that local sub-species of morelia??

So only using those references a male Jungle Jag could really have an impact on a small area such as the Palmerston Gorge??

Just food for thought

Its post like this above why this argument will never end. The statements and opinions within are based on zero experience and heresay amongst the anti-jag brigade......

If a JAG has shown neuro signs it does not display these signs 24/7. There are far too many anti-JAG keepers out there passing off misleading and false info regarding neuro in JAGS.

YES neuro is present in some JAGS, some severe (very very few) and some minor and some dont display it at all.

The signs may appear for a few seconds every few weeks or months even years. It is very very rare for one to display constant signs. Generally the signs (if present) occur during extreme excitement or stress. Remembering that only a very small percentage exhibit signs and the majority either never do display or display extremely minor signs. In my experience more than 95% of JAGS live completely normal and thrive in our captive environments just like any other python......

So in my experience and the numerous keepers experiences that have aquired JAGS from me, yes we do buy them and keep them becuase they look hot in our enclosures, not too mention the possibilities for new colourations and patterns through selective breeding JAGS that are above and beyond regular morelias.....

The neuro issue is part and parcel with working with this morph, however it is nowhere near as severe as some anti-jag keepers are making it out to be.........

Barramundi
WOW
This is actually a huge difference to international figures so I must say I'm impressed

From their estimates in the USA most breeders expect between 80 and 90% of Jags to display symptoms
So for us to have only

In my experience more than 95% of JAGS live completely normal and thrive in our captive environments just like any other python......[unquote] means that things here are vastly different

This puts a whole different look at this as my only experience has been in the USA and Indonesia where the problem seems a lot worse

Thanks for that information

 

[wranga]

After getting through a surprisingly large amount of those references in some ways I must agree with you Carpet

Please correct any of this I have wrong as I am a total novice about jeans

If we take directly from those references that the best females are attracted to the best males in most species then things change dramatically
1,,A jungle Jag would usually be bigger, stronger, more attractive to local jungles??
2..Some Jags display no symptoms for up 5 years??
3..The gene may skip a generation only to return??

A young male jungle jag escapes in the Palmerston Gorge
This male is big strong and beautiful
He exhibits no signs of neuro so the very best local females cue up to meet him
This continues for 3 more years until one day he wakes up a bit under the weather

His progeny will do one of three things
They will immediately show neuro signs and die?
They will show no immediate signs and thrive with X% also being the biggest strongest and most attractive?
They will be normal looking jungles which do or dont still carry the gene??

Nature only allows X% of hatchies to survive through predation etc etc
If that X% is now further diluted by a bad gene what is the future for that local sub-species of morelia??

So only using those references a male Jungle Jag could really have an impact on a small area such as the Palmerston Gorge??

Just food for thought

how far would an escaped jungle jag have to travel if it was to escape from surburbia
to reach palmerston gorge before it was lucky enough to mate and have an impact on this small area?

 

[BARRAMUNDI]

Longqi

The overseas figures are correct, whats incorrect is that most peoples statements portray all the JAGS to be twisters and mongeloids etc, 95% will live and behave normally with only either very minor or not noticeable symptoms. All have the potential to show neuro, yet not all will. The majority that show neuro exhibit very minor and barely noticeable symptoms. Very very few display severe looping and twisting. To date from 70 or so juvies, 2 have shown twisting.........

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

Thanks for answering that for me Wranga. Neurological signs actually makes males useless when it comes to male combat.

1. It does not matter how attractive a snake looks to us as people. Carpet pythons don't use visual cues to detect suitability of a mate. They perceive their environment through their chemosensory organs.

2. It could even take longer.

3. Genes don't skip a generation! They are either expressed or suppressed.

Some more reading and applying ahead for you Longqi!

 

[longqi]

Longqi

The overseas figures are correct, whats incorrect is that most peoples statements portray all the JAGS to be twisters and mongeloids etc, 95% will live and behave normally with only either very minor or not noticeable symptoms. All have the potential to show neuro, yet not all will. The majority that show neuro exhibit very minor and barely noticeable symptoms. Very very few display severe looping and twisting. To date from 70 or so juvies, 2 have shown twisting.........

I will reply to wranga first if I may
This scenario is just that
A scenario and one which could be equably used on other of the smaller localised populations that more experienced know about but generally keep fairly quiet such as various populations of diamonds etc etc
I only used Palmerston as an example because that is a very well known one

Barramundi
Using you last post as well now is where I find this thing really disturbing

In your last post you said 95% will live normal lives??
To me a normal life would never involve any twitching at all?
If a human starts twitching etc it is usually accompanied by more serious mental or physical problems?
A human can tell us what is happening inside and we can usually find ways to cure or alleviate the problem?

But if a snake starts twitching we just say that is part of their normal life???

Although lots of people disagree with me I use reptiles for display
This involves lots of hands on work and getting the snake to totally trust me is the secret
Most of my snakes except the chondros were wild caught
Within one month I fully expect that no wild caught snake will even attempt to bite me again
Within two months I expect to be able to use that snake in my displays

One single twitch or other different change is enough for me to gently remove that snake from a show and start looking for what caused it
and I am usually not satisfied until I understand exactly what the snake was telling me

I cannot do that with a snake that has a probabilty of twitching??

This has probably clarified a few things for me now
You are welcome to continue breeding these
But I could never ever deliberately breed something that has these outward signs
and then pretend to myself that this is normal

Good luck

 

[wranga]

longqi...i understand that you were using palmeston gorge as an example. but in reality it would be near impossible for an escapee to reach one of these wild population unless it was kept on the fringes of one of these populations. so we come back to an earlier post by i think CarpetPythons that an escapee would have no efect on any wild natives. this has been an interesting thread, but after 4 pages its still at the same point as page 1.

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

This has probably clarified a few things for me now
You are welcome to continue breeding these
But I could never ever deliberately breed something that has these outward signs
and then pretend to myself that this is normal

Good luck

No problem! Its your opinion and I fully respect that.

 

[BARRAMUNDI]

Longqi

Once again its the lack of understanding and experience which is what is confusing yourself and others in regards to these symptoms. I cant believe that now you and others are describing what JAGS do without ever actually having any hands on experience.

you use the term twitching......JAGS dont twitch. When referring to normal lives I am making reference to the fact that 95% LIVE NORMAL LIVES. NO TWITCHING, NO LOOPING, NO SPIRALLING........

In the most severe case they will loop or spiral, this occurrence is very very rare and when it does occur it will only last while the animal is exposed to the stress or excitement and at times for a short period after, this is not a normal life. Remove the stimulus and you remove the symptoms........

Someone has said it already, you are no closer to answering your own question, all it appears now is that you are indirectly trying to bait myself and others........On the note of baiting, Im doing something more constructive than banging my head against the wall dealing with people who cannot comprehend simple facts. Time to go fishing........

By the way whats the deal with wild caught animals, you refer to the situation as though you use wild caught reptiles often and recently.......

 

[longqi]

Thanks for answering that for me Wranga. Neurological signs actually makes males useless when it comes to male combat.

1. It does not matter how attractive a snake looks to us as people. Carpet pythons don't use visual cues to detect suitability of a mate. They perceive their environment through their chemosensory organs.

2. It could even take longer.

3. Genes don't skip a generation! They are either expressed or suppressed.

Some more reading and applying ahead for you Longqi!

Ty Carpets
I will continue to read about this
GF is away for another few days

I wonder if anyone has ever tried that to prove your point?
Put a normal sized female jungle with a normal sized male jungle and a normal sized but pretty jungle jag who shows no signs of neuro problems?
If I was the female I know who I would probably choose
and surely the size difference would balance out the combat??

Forgive my terminology I was trying to keep it as much as possible in laymans terms

Longqi

Once again its the lack of understanding and experience which is what is confusing yourself and others in regards to these symptoms. I cant believe that now you and others are describing what JAGS do without ever actually having any hands on experience.

you use the term twitching......JAGS dont twitch. When referring to normal lives I am making reference to the fact that 95% LIVE NORMAL LIVES. NO TWITCHING, NO LOOPING, NO SPIRALLING........

In the most severe case they will loop or spiral, this occurrence is very very rare and when it does occur it will only last while the animal is exposed to the stress or excitement and at times for a short period after, this is not a normal life. Remove the stimulus and you remove the symptoms........

Someone has said it already, you are no closer to answering your own question, all it appears now is that you are indirectly trying to bait myself and others........On the note of baiting, Im doing something more constructive than banging my head against the wall dealing with people who cannot comprehend simple facts. Time to go fishing........

By the way whats the deal with wild caught animals, you refer to the situation as though you use wild caught reptiles often and recently.......

Actually Barramundi although I have never attempted to breed them I have handled and seen approximately 400 jags in Both USA and Indonesia ranging through all sizes and including most mixtures
Therefore although I cannot say I have ever bred them I do have a little bit of knowledge about them and 'twitching' would be one of the most prevalent symptoms I have personally seen
I totally agree that spiralling etc is one of the most pitiful things things I have ever seen any reptile do
The other nasty one is that kind of backward star gazing they sometimes do
[Bit like OPMV in the middle stages??]

Hope you catch plenty
lousy fishing up here

I refered to my using wild caughts because I live in Indonesia now and the vast majority of my display animals are wild caught and were destined for the dinner table
I buy from the food markets here in the majority of cases although some are brought into the display

 

[cement]

It's clear that you don't understand! The information that I posted was copied and pasted from sources around the web. I could list hundreds of science text books that are peer reviewed by real experts in the field that contains the same information that I posted. Read the information, cross reference some of the scientific words with a good biology dictionary and try to understand these basic principles of gene flow in a population. It's not as simple as forum posters expect it to be! A few captive bred native carpet pythons released into a population of wild animals would have no effect on the current population. A few thousand released in the same area could have a more serious effect!

As much as the anti jag people seem to be spreading rumours etc (which I doubt, most of the info they read comes from the states and from people who have been breeding, and have bred more of these then you, barramundi or stone put together),
you guys seem to exaggerate quite a bit to win points.
You have here posted literature off the web that you want us to read and understand, yet you don't acknowledge the literature that Longqi or others read on the web about these animals.
As you deem it so important for us to get hands on with jags before commenting, maybe you could tell us of all your field work experience with wild populations of pythons and the studies you have done that specifically relate to tracking of and monitoring escaped or released non local pythons into local pops.

 

[D3pro]

longqi, reading this thread and the comments you and the other people made, I can see you have not made any progress. You started this thread with a one way opinion and pre-judgement, asking questions and making theories that have no real research to ether side of the argument and have not reached any real conclusion. If your trying to stir up crap on an already touchy subject maybe you should go on an overseas forum, much better then asking a group of people who have only been keeping jags in the recent years.

Your all just banging your head together, on side saying the world is flat, and the other saying it's square. Non of you are going to get it right anytime soon and all this energy can be put to better use.

You don't like jags fine, don't keep them. Others will.

 

[nasool]

Good information on the Neuro problem here for those that do not know much about it. "Neuro Jags"

To say 95% of Jags do not show any sign and live a normal life is obviously not true. From the experience of breeders and owners overseas it is pretty much a given that 100% of Jags have the Neuro problem, some may not express it 95% of the time and the severity of it varies but they all have it.