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longqi, reading this thread and the comments you and the other people made, I can see you have not made any progress. You started this thread with a one way opinion and pre-judgement, asking questions and making theories that have no real research to ether side of the argument and have not reached any real conclusion. If your trying to stir up crap on an already touchy subject maybe you should go on an overseas forum, much better then asking a group of people who have only been keeping jags in the recent years.

Your all just banging your head together, on side saying the world is flat, and the other saying it's square. Non of you are going to get it right anytime soon and all this energy can be put to better use.

You don't like jags fine, don't keep them. Others will.

Hi
Actually after reading a pretty large % of the links Carpets left I tend to agree that a gravid female would have very little likelyhood of causing problems
But the question of a male jag which displays no symptoms; loose in a small locale; still remains in mind

I would love to see a definitive answer to that one
Actually the only reason I brought this up is because exactly the same questions are being asked in Indonesia now
international forums couldnt care less because they dont have native morelia soit does not interest them the least
 
As much as the anti jag people seem to be spreading rumours etc (which I doubt, most of the info they read comes from the states and from people who have been breeding, and have bred more of these then you, barramundi or stone put together),
you guys seem to exaggerate quite a bit to win points.
You have here posted literature off the web that you want us to read and understand, yet you don't acknowledge the literature that Longqi or others read on the web about these animals.
As you deem it so important for us to get hands on with jags before commenting, maybe you could tell us of all your field work experience with wild populations of pythons and the studies you have done that specifically relate to tracking of and monitoring escaped or released non local pythons into local pops.

The difference between the information that I provided and the information that you and your jag brigade try to force down people's throats is that my information is acknowledged by most if not all biologist and zoologists, and has been peer reviewed over decades. It has been studied in the field and has been proven to be the principles involved in most populations genetic makeup, not just reptiles. All animal populations gene flow function in a similar manner. You base your facts on information read on forums from countries outside of Australia. Longqi asked a question and it has been answered using principles of population genetics. He asked if a Jag escaping would cause problems? The answer is no. If he asked if a hundred jags escaping would cause problems then the probability of trouble would increase.

The research has been done! You just choose to not understand it!
 
I think we need to put the basic information we know about jags into perspective (complex research and genetic science aside) in regards to "escspees"...

We know that jags will display neurological problems/symptoms/signs when in hightened stressed/excitement is presented (minor to extreme manifestation). We know this as they have shown these in captivity... If JAGS have the possibility to display neurological symptoms in the relative comfort of captivity with them not having to hunt for live prey, no predators, stable temperatures etc.. etc.. I'm afraid that an escape JAG would find the natural environment just a tad too much would you guys not agree? Given this I would be brave enough to say that an escape JAGs survival rate in a local natural environment would be sweet FA... This would make the point of them being a threat to the natural population moot don't you think... If they can get stressed out and so callled "flip out" in a cage then I would think they will have a nervous breakdown in the wild.

To further put it into perspective the chance of it getting out beyond suburbia where most JAG keepers to actually meet the indegeinous local repltile population is even slimmer.The neighbour will take a shovel to it before it gets close enough to meet another snake.. Can you imagine what they would do when they go to examine this weird snake they have just seen in their yard and it stresses out and starts to twitch/sway/backflip/spiral in an eratic fashion... I can guarantee you that now that pretty little jag is nothing but a "king brown" out to slaughter every man woman and child in that house and will be quickly disposed of with a shovel... Do I need to mention cats, birds, dogs and all manner of other stuff now "stressing" the poor escaped snake out in a setting outside of it's 4x2x2 display enclosure....
 
I have to say that you are right. I don't think that jags could survive long in the wild. I think it would be way too stressful and it just couldn't handle the requirements of every day life. Most people have to realize that jags don't display neuro issues 24-7. Some only have maybe a wobble or two every now and than for a couple of seconds. My jag might do the little 'backflip' with his head for a few seconds off and on for 20 minutes or so and than he is fine again for a few days. I found this video on youtube and I would have to say that this jag shows severe neuro issues. YouTube - Neuro Regular Jaguar.3gp

After watching that video, imagine that jag in a tree or out in the open or whatever, twisting and turning and doing 'back*****' and crap like that. Imagine how much attention that would attract from predators. Clearly he wouldn't last long in the wild. Now every jag isn't like that but I have read that it is possible that as they get older the neuro issues get worse. If that is the case than wouldn't all jags probably get picked off as they got older? Just some stuff to think about.
 
Hi
Actually after reading a pretty large % of the links Carpets left I tend to agree that a gravid female would have very little likelyhood of causing problems
But the question of a male jag which displays no symptoms; loose in a small locale; still remains in mind

Longqi asked a question and it has been answered using principles of population genetics. He asked if a Jag escaping would cause problems? The answer is no. If he asked if a hundred jags escaping would cause problems then the probability of trouble would increase.

You just choose to not understand it!

Couldn't of said it better myself.
 
Wow some people really do know nothing about natural wildlife. I understand what waterrat was getting at now.
 
I completely agree that a Jag displaying neuro problems would find it difficult to survive outside
But what about ones that do not display these problems as in the many that grew to 5years or more before showing the slightest external fault?
While all of this wonderful documentation that categorically proves; that a few snakes introduced into an area will have little or no influence; makes for interesting if tedious reading; how about the well cases in both California and Florida where some local varieties of both Corn and King snake have taken over by morphs?
By taken over I mean they have been breeding with the larger more colourful morphs and are producing virtually a new morph which has taken over the old range to the detriment of the local variety
Those cases seem to refute these papers with actual facts rather than theory?

I deliberately did not mention them because there is an enormous difference between a healthy morph and a jag and my major concern was with jags
But now that the only replies are that "these papers prove you are wrong" it is probably time to show that in more that one instance those papers are possibly incorrect in regard to being applied to all species

50 years will tell us the answer and I hope Im wrong
 
Wow some people really do know nothing about natural wildlife. I understand what waterrat was getting at now.

care to share zack? id love to hear all about what part of captive keeping of snakes has anything to do with natural wildlife. if it was natural wouldnt it be free? please do tell, maybe you could get another member to help you, if his ban has expired.
 
care to share zack? id love to hear all about what part of captive keeping of snakes has anything to do with natural wildlife. if it was natural wouldnt it be free? please do tell, maybe you could get another member to help you, if his ban has expired.

You have taken what I have said the wrong way. I was not speaking of jags but of wild populations and simple genetics. Calm down.
 
care to share zack? id love to hear all about what part of captive keeping of snakes has anything to do with natural wildlife. if it was natural wouldnt it be free? please do tell, maybe you could get another member to help you, if his ban has expired.

I want to hear it as well lol.
 
You have taken what I have said the wrong way. I was not speaking of jags but of wild populations and simple genetics. Calm down.

im very calm. just spoils a thread when unrelated comments are made. sorry i must of missed the bit you made on simple genetics
 
I want to hear it as well lol.

What do you want to hear I'm confused now.

im very calm. just spoils a thread when unrelated comments are made. sorry i must of missed the bit you made on simple genetics

I understand what you are saying but I'm on your side here I just can't be bothered to try to explain logic and reason to close minded people who know little to nothing about wild populations and how genetics work. Also I don't think it was that different from comment 23 of this thread.
 
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care to share zack? id love to hear all about what part of captive keeping of snakes has anything to do with natural wildlife. if it was natural wouldnt it be free? please do tell, maybe you could get another member to help you, if his ban has expired.

......... :D
 
The difference between the information that I provided and the information that you and your jag brigade try to force down people's throats is that my information is acknowledged by most if not all biologist and zoologists, and has been peer reviewed over decades. It has been studied in the field and has been proven to be the principles involved in most populations genetic makeup, not just reptiles. All animal populations gene flow function in a similar manner. You base your facts on information read on forums from countries outside of Australia. Longqi asked a question and it has been answered using principles of population genetics. He asked if a Jag escaping would cause problems? The answer is no. If he asked if a hundred jags escaping would cause problems then the probability of trouble would increase.

The research has been done! You just choose to not understand it!
really? how many times have you seen a study tell you its healthy to eat red meat and then the next time tell you its unhealthy to eat red meat??? and the cane toad thing that is always on the minds of many herp keepers
, they did studies years before they released them and now look at the problem we have today , i really think we need to look at the big picture!!!,
( I have a idea!!! you give me the contact name of a jag breeder (PM to me) who has NO signs of nero issues, i will buy a few hatchling jags off him and raise them up to adults taking notes as i go and publish them on here for all to see with links to utube, that way myself and others like me can know first hand and not read what our US friends are saying about them??.)
 
I completely agree that a Jag displaying neuro problems would find it difficult to survive outside
But what about ones that do not display these problems as in the many that grew to 5years or more before showing the slightest external fault?
While all of this wonderful documentation that categorically proves; that a few snakes introduced into an area will have little or no influence; makes for interesting if tedious reading; how about the well cases in both California and Florida where some local varieties of both Corn and King snake have taken over by morphs?
By taken over I mean they have been breeding with the larger more colourful morphs and are producing virtually a new morph which has taken over the old range to the detriment of the local variety
Those cases seem to refute these papers with actual facts rather than theory?

I deliberately did not mention them because there is an enormous difference between a healthy morph and a jag and my major concern was with jags
But now that the only replies are that "these papers prove you are wrong" it is probably time to show that in more that one instance those papers are possibly incorrect in regard to being applied to all species

50 years will tell us the answer and I hope Im wrong

Care to share this data with us? How many thousands of corns do you think escape from American collections when there are 300 million people? You can't compare the two countries.
 
The difference between the information that I provided and the information that you and your jag brigade try to force down people's throats is that my information is acknowledged by most if not all biologist and zoologists, and has been peer reviewed over decades. It has been studied in the field and has been proven to be the principles involved in most populations genetic makeup, not just reptiles. All animal populations gene flow function in a similar manner. You base your facts on information read on forums from countries outside of Australia. Longqi asked a question and it has been answered using principles of population genetics. He asked if a Jag escaping would cause problems? The answer is no. If he asked if a hundred jags escaping would cause problems then the probability of trouble would increase.

Well said, CP.com, again you not only try to make it personal, but you still don't acknowledge the fact that people other then yourself, know any better then you do.
If you are willing to tell us all here that over a decade of breeding these snakes out of Australia, including dedication to the point of trying to seperate the neuro issue from the phenotype is just all a load of crap, then I suggest that you are just so intelligent that you simply don't understand common logic.
The only input I have in this is that no-one knows the answer to this question. You can point and link all you want, you can say what ever you like about me, but YOU DO NOT KNOW. This is the truth here in Australia.

Forums outside of Australia have plenty of recorded evidence on these animals, and they openly tell it how it is. This comes from the experience gained from keeping them. Albeit in captivity.

We here, in Aus have every right to wonder how these animals will affect our herp scene. Those that don't like the jag morph (me and my brigade! what a laugh) are not as vocal as you try and tell everyone they are. They simply add their bits to threads like this which is fine. If you had your way you would censor all this so no one knew anything.

And to show that you don't exaggerate you now go from thousands to hundreds. Great... most wild diamond habitats that I work with around here would be struggling to support dozens, let alone hundreds or thousands.

Just so you know where I come from regarding this topic, the fact that jags are here to stay is common knowledge, what they will do in the wild (if they escape) is
unknown at this point and depends on a hell of a lot of factors. If you disagree then at least try to get across your point with a bit of maturity and leave the personal bits, and the exaggeration out.
 
Care to share this data with us? How many thousands of corns do you think escape from American collections when there are 300 million people? You can't compare the two countries.

That data is openly discussed on kingsnake.com as one simple example
Of course we can compare the two countries regarding healthy morphs escaping and changing local varieties
Of the 1000s of morph you probably quite correctly claim escape each year only a very very few would escape in places where
they can possibly affect the native populations??
yet if you go any american reptile forum this question is being discussed quite openly there

The BIG difference here is I started this regarding reptiles some consider as 'unhealthy' snakes
I only included it to show that the theories can possibly be wrong about the influence of individuals on small populations
 
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nothing like a good jag bashing .... some of you need to move on and realise regardless of how many threads you put up , no matter how many times you remind people of the many fictional variables that may occur the snakes are here to stay ......


any responsible person with half a brain would not let a $1500-2500 snake get out or go missing in the first place !

id be more concerned about the possibility that Opmv would be introduced into the wild through jags, we all know the origins, downfalls and benefits jag blood can have. but IMO the possibility of Opmv and other diseases being introduced is far greater then a jag or jag sibs breeding into our natives.

I would really like to nominate this for the biggest "BS" post of the week , a basic understanding of the morph wouldn't go a stray or diseases for that matter
 
id be more concerned about the possibility that Opmv would be introduced into the wild through jags, we all know the origins, downfalls and benefits jag blood can have. but IMO the possibility of Opmv and other diseases being introduced is far greater then a jag or jag sibs breeding into our natives.

Do you have conclusive evidence that OPMV does not exist naturally in Australian snakes?
 
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