Help with a Carpet Python

[Prof_Moreliarty]

Looks like it’s line bred for a reduced pattern. @Bl69aze

 

[GBWhite]

Yes but as I said I know they can vary. Aswell as the pattern doesn’t seem right to be pure coastal. But again, it can vary.

I still think it’s a mix

Hi Bi69aze,

Mate it's a stock standard East Coast (Coastal) Morelia. As you said they do vary quite a bit, even within an area.

Here's just a few examples of wild ones that have shown up at my place over the last couple of years.

I've got a couple here that look very much like yours too that came out of a male very similar to the OP's one and a stripped female. Both were originally from wild caught snakes.

I kept the offspring not just because of their pattern but because they were twins (two from the one egg).

 

[Wally]

Coastals have a large selection of pj's in the cupboard. Part of the reason why I like them.

 

[Fall guys]

Hi Bi69aze,

Mate it's a stock standard East Coast (Coastal) Morelia. As you said they do vary quite a bit, even within an area.

Here's just a few examples of wild have that have shown up at my place over the last couple of years.View attachment 322161 View attachment 322162 View attachment 322163 View attachment 322164 View attachment 322165

I've got a couple here that look very much like yours too that came out of a male very similar to the OP's one and a stripped female. Both were originally from wild caught snakes.

I kept the offspring not just because of their pattern but because they were twins (two from the one egg).

Wow! I knew they varied but not that much @.@ is there any distinguishing feature that if you looked at all those that you posted you would be able to say that’s a coastal, if someone didn’t tell you they were coastals?

I also always wondered but thought it was a dumb thought if healthy twins from a single egg was possible

 

[pinefamily]

The coastals have a distinctive head shape, from our experience.

 

[GBWhite]

The coastals have a distinctive head shape, from our experience.

Not really from the many, many hundreds of wild ones that I've seen over the years.

 

[dragonlover1]

Hi Bi69aze,

Mate it's a stock standard East Coast (Coastal) Morelia. As you said they do vary quite a bit, even within an area.

Here's just a few examples of wild ones that have shown up at my place over the last couple of years.View attachment 322161 View attachment 322162 View attachment 322163 View attachment 322164 View attachment 322165

I've got a couple here that look very much like yours too that came out of a male very similar to the OP's one and a stripped female. Both were originally from wild caught snakes.

I kept the offspring not just because of their pattern but because they were twins (two from the one egg).

photo #3 looks like an intergrade to me,seems to have some diamond in it?

 

[GBWhite]

Wow! I knew they varied but not that much @.@ is there any distinguishing feature that if you looked at all those that you posted you would be able to say that’s a coastal, if someone didn’t tell you they were coastals?

I also always wondered but thought it was a dumb thought if healthy twins from a single egg was possible

Not really, it just comes from years of experience with examining snakes from all over the place.

Personally (and I have had this discussion on here and with a lot of herpers) I'm of the opinion that except for maybe M bredli and possibly M imbricata all the the rest of the Morelia spilota group are basically the same snake and should have remained as Morelia spilota variegata.

photo #3 looks like an intergrade to me,seems to have some diamond in it?

Well it ain't. Bellingen local. No Diamonds anywhere near this place. No such thing as an intergrade in my book. No one ever considers the fact that Morelia spilota are a unique group of snakes that has the ability to produce colour variations to suit their local environment (and even micro-environment) as a survival technique. That's why they are the most successful species of python throughout Australia.

 

[Scutellatus]

Well it ain't. Bellingen local. No Diamonds anywhere near this place. No such thing as an intergrade in my book. No one ever considers the fact that Morelia spilota are a unique group of snakes that has the ability to produce colour variations to suit their local environment (and even micro-environment) as a survival technique. That's why they are the most successful species of python throughout Australia.

Are you saying that you don't believe that intergrades exist or that they are just one and the same because they are from the same family?

 

[GBWhite]

I'm saying that I don't believe intergrades exist because they all belong to the same family.

 

[Scutellatus]

@GBWhite
Considering they are vastly different in their markings (unlike all other carpets who look the same just different colouration ) and their territory overlaps, then they are a sub-species in their own right. That is like saying that dog sub-species don't exist because they are all from the same family.

 

[GBWhite]

Sorry I just have to disagree. Family may have been the wrong word I was using it in reply to your question. I should have been more precise and said species.

 

[Wally]

Not really, it just comes from years of experience with examining snakes from all over the place.

Personally (and I have had this discussion on here and with a lot of herpers) I'm of the opinion that except for maybe M bredli and possibly M imbricata all the the rest of the Morelia spilota group are basically the same snake and should have remained as Morelia spilota variegata.

I agree George. I've expressed the same opinion on here many times.

 

[SpottedPythons]

But dogs don't have subspecies - they are all mutations of one single species, Canis Lupis Familiarus, which is, in it's own right, a subspecies of the wolf.

 

[pinefamily]

There has been some research done at Flinders Uni over the last few years in molecular DNA of carpet pythons, mainly to assist in identification in the illegal reptile smuggling busts. From memory, they had identified that there were only 4 species/subspecies of pythons: bredli, SWCP, GTP, and the rest. I did have a link to one article, but it has been moved or taken down.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

But dogs don't have subspecies - they are all mutations of one single species, Canis Lupis Familiarus, which is, in it's own right, a subspecies of the wolf.

Exactly right. There was an awesome documentary produced a couple of years back about how every single dog breed on the planet, from Chihuahuas to Great Danes can trace their lineage directly back to the Himalayan wolf. They have just been selectively bred to produce the many mutations we have today.

 

[GBWhite]

There has been some research done at Flinders Uni over the last few years in molecular DNA of carpet pythons, mainly to assist in identification in the illegal reptile smuggling busts. From memory, they had identified that there were only 4 species/subspecies of pythons: bredli, SWCP, GTP, and the rest. I did have a link to one article, but it has been moved or taken down.

Hi pinefamily.

I think this is the one you are referring to.

http://www.researchgate.net/publica...ythons_suitable_for_degraded_forensic_samples

Here's an interesting extract from the paper.

“The position of M. bredli within M. spilota and the clustering of individuals of the M. spilota imbricata sub-species as a separate group to the remainder of M. spilota requires some comment. Morelia bredli was recently reclassified as a separate species from M. spilota without a formal taxonomic treatment [28]. Our data suggest two possibilities for the relationship of M. bredli with M. spilota: either that M. bredli is not sufficiently divergent to be a separate species, or that M. spilota actually comprises several species, among which two would be M. bredli and M. s. imbricata. Resolution of these issues will require extensive morphological analysis and likely nuclear gene data, neither of which is trivial for this widespread group of pythons. As an interim we hereafter use ‘‘M. spilota complex’’ to refer to M. spilota, M. bredli, and M. s. imbricata in lieu of future taxonomic resolution of the complex”.

The paper indicates the use of mitochondrial DNA analysis can determine the ancestry of a genus and/or species as well as the location of individual animals but according to the the International Code Zoological Nomenclature (ICZN), location/distribution alone is not considered sufficient to classify taxa as a separate species. To be raised to species level a taxon must be uniquely different from other taxa. So, considering that there is no standard to comply with the use of molecular data to identify or validate species is somewhat questionable I believe it can be argued, “What level of difference in DNA analysis contributes to a unique difference?”.

Cheers,

George.

 

[Yellowtail]

The same applies to **** Sapiens. Are Herpetologists a sub species? Will they evolve over time an immunity to snake venom?
Personally I enjoy the uniqueness of the various Morelia sub species and line breeding them to enhance the specific appearance and behaviour characteristics.
Not so sure about cross breeding or deliberate breeding of genetic faults like jags. We should not go down the same route as has happened with designer dogs having skulls to small for their brains or need surgical assistance to breathe properly or even give birth.

 

[cagey]

I am enjoying this discussion.... although, as a scientist, I am sure I have a bias.

 

[pinefamily]

Thanks George. That's one of the papers written by these researchers.