Help with a Carpet Python

[Nero Egernia]

The scientific argument is Diamonds and Coastals are identical and the "intergrades" are just a local colour variation as you go North. If they are "genetically identical" why do Coastal males combat while Diamond males are happy to form male harems around females.

Do intergrades combat?

I read that S.W. Carpet Pythons lack the posterior suture of the nasal scale. Whereas - with the exception of the M.D. Carpet Python - the rest of the carpet python complex do. Not sure if that means anything.

 

[Pauls_Pythons]

@Scutellatus
Head shape......though that has been sort of discounted. General body shape/size & length. And who can look past those teeth? Certainly more like a GTP than morelia in my book. (That said I keep neither species so I'm not founding my thoughts on any actual experience/exposure here)

 

[Yellowtail]

Originally Carinata was considered genetically close to Viridis, effectively a GTP that evolved in a drying climate and having kept both there is a lot they have in common but I read somewhere more recently that there was also a genetic link between Carinata and Imbricata.
How does Morelia oenpelliensis fit in? It's range adjoins that of Variegata which is being argued as genetically just a Coastal.

Do intergrades combat?

I read that S.W. Carpet Pythons lack the posterior suture of the nasal scale. Whereas - with the exception of the M.D. Carpet Python - the rest of the carpet python complex do. Not sure if that means anything.

I have no personal experience with intergrades so maybe someone else can advise as to the combat issue but Northern NSW Coastals certainly combat.
The southern SW's have very similar habits to Diamonds with the males congregating without combat in groups around females and the breeding season is the same. I don't have any personal experience with SW's from the Northern end of their range, is there a change of behaviour like Northern NSW Coastals? Is there an "intergrade" SW? I have SW's from Geraldton and they behave the same as the Garden island ones I used to keep.
You have to consider climate and latitude also, Perth is the same latitude as Mid North NSW, outside the Diamonds range.

 

[SpottedPythons]

I was told by someone that they are actually the closest relative of the Green Tree Python. Can anyone confirm this?

Apparently DNA test on skin sheds provided by the Reptile Park confirmed this.

 

[GBWhite]

Head shapes in pythons also vary with sex, size and age. There is more to it than colour, sub species of Morelia Spilota also vary considerably in size like Jungles and Coastals from the same area and behaviour like Male Coastals combat while Male Diamonds 200 Km away are happy to form a harem. How does Morelia Carinata fit in with the genetic puzzle and what about the smaller species of Mulga in NW WA.

Hi Yellowtail.

In regard to head shape, that's exactly what I was referring to. It appears to me that size attained by each individual animal is more dependant on the availability and size of food items than genetics. I've seen plenty of captive "jungles" that have attained similar sizes to "coastals".

Considering that males locate females by following pheromone trails and both "species" live sympatrically do you really think that one with the colour and pattern of a "jungle" is going to actively and deliberately seek out another with the same pattern to mate with? Surely if this was the case then this would also apply where the distribution of each of the "species" of the M spilota group overlap and as such there wouldn't be "intergrades". As I'm sure you're aware, in the wild mating is opportunistic and will produce a clutch of snakes of varying colour and patterns.

Captive breeding usually involves the selection of specimens of similar appearance to acquire a specific outcome. I've had friends that have put a "jungle" and "coastal" from the same location together which naturally produced a mixed result with some hatchling displaying the colours and patterns consistent with "jungles' others consistent with coastals and a couple a mixture of both. I've also heard that this has happened when wild caught "jungles" have been put together, especially in the early days of commercial breeding.

Why male "diamonds" are more tolerant of each other during mating aggregations deserves more investigation however this behavior is not confined to just "diamonds" and has been recorded as occurring in other species of snakes that are known to engage in ritual combat. On that note I have a friend named Robert Cook (a reptile photographer) who came across 3 separate aggregations of mating groups of "diamonds" over a 3 day period on sandstone escarpments on the south coast of NSW quite a few years back. They consisted of a number of males all actively vying for the attention of the lone female. He was telling me that he sat and observed each group for quite a period of time and while the vast majority males in each group seemed to pay no attention to each other there were two of very similar size at one of the aggregations that were engaged in a bit of a tussle. He said that they weren't all that aggressive toward each other but the behaviour he observed appeared to him that they were engaged in combat.

I recall reading a paper regarding genetic studies of Tiger Snakes on a couple of the islands around Tasmania some years back which produced an interesting result. From memory it was undertaken to determine if there was any genetic diversity between those on the mainland and those that were isolated on islands adjacent to Tasmania where one population on one island consisted of smaller mainly black coloured snakes with an average overall adult length of 1 meter and another population on another island consisted of larger snakes which also displayed a consistent black colour morph with an average adult length of 1.5 meters. It was hypothesised that they would be genetically different but the result proved exactly the opposite.


Cheers,

George.

 

[Yellowtail]

Interesting George, I have also observed Diamond groups in the wild and SW's exhibit the same behaviour so why not other Morelia that live in higher population densities, I agree opportunistic mating makes sense but I feed my Julatten Jungles very well and the largest ones (10+ years old) are less than 1.5 M. Coastals from the same district can be 3-4 M.
How does Morelia oenpelliensis fit in? It's range adjoins that of Variegata which is being argued as genetically just a Coastal.

 

[pinefamily]

So where does the jag gene, with the associated neuro issues, fit into all of this? Are there certain pairings that produce the gene? If so, does this point to separate species or subspecies?
I'm not arguing against any points made so far, it's just something that has occurred to me.

 

[Yellowtail]

It is generally accepted that jag genetics in Australian pythons came from smuggled animals.

 

[SpottedPythons]

I met someone who believed that Jags can be made through two different subspecies of carpet mating, then breeding the resulting Intergrade offspring together. Any truth in this?

 

[pinefamily]

I met someone who believed that Jags can be made through two different subspecies of carpet mating, then breeding the resulting Intergrade offspring together. Any truth in this?

This is where my question was leading. If nearly all Morelia are the same species, what is the jag gene? Is it a mutated abnormality, or is it the result of breeding two different subspecies? Sort of like breeding a horse with a donkey, where you get a mule, that cannot breed.
If the jag gene has originally come from breeding say a jungle with a bredli for example, then it is an example of breeding different species/subspecies. But if it has come from breeding a jungle with a coastal, and they are apparently the same species, then what?

 

[Scutellatus]

The original jag gene was reportedly produced by two pure coastals, whether this is true or not only the original breeder knows. This pairing was done outside of Australia hence the reasoning behind our jags being smuggled originally.

 

[SpottedPythons]

What about Southern X Reptiles's "RPMs"? I am aware that that was the original name for Jags, but their website claims that their RPMs are different genetically from Jags, and do not suffer neuro?

 

[pinefamily]

What about Southern X Reptiles's "RPMs"? I am aware that that was the original name for Jags, but their website claims that their RPMs are different genetically from Jags, and do not suffer neuro?

Line breeding for colour and pattern?

 

[Scutellatus]

Their RPM's are probably their attempt at making their own Jag line without the original Jag bloodline produced by Jan Eric Engell. As far as I am aware the originals were called Jaguar not RPM. The RPM name may have been SXR's way of steering clear of the negativity around the Jag name.

 

[SpottedPythons]

They look exactly the same - if it is line breeding, then impressive effort by SXR. Here's a pic grabbed from their site:

Nope, wait. It says on their site that it is a codominant trait that functions similar to the Jag, but no neuro issues... so not line breeding. Chances seem pretty low they have a new, pure line that is exactly like the Jags without any cons, but it's still pretty cool if there is truly no neuro. But SXR has a good reputation, so not sure what to think about this...

 

[pinefamily]

SXR is no longer a going concern.

 

[Prof_Moreliarty]

jan eric engell bred the first jag in Norway I believe, he got his coastals before the laws there became a lot stricter so he was one of the only people with them and he couldn’t introduce new blood. there was a lot of inbreeding and that resulted in the jag morph. It’s something I read a while ago but I tend to believe it you only have to look at the ball pythons in America and all the inbreeding that occurs there has resulted in some very wild and varied morphs a lot of those come with genetic defects much like dogs.

 

[Wally]

Their RPM's are probably their attempt at making their own Jag line without the original Jag bloodline produced by Jan Eric Engell. As far as I am aware the originals were called Jaguar not RPM. The RPM name may have been SXR's way of steering clear of the negativity around the Jag name.

RPM was everybody's way of introducing jags into the hobby that had a vested interest in them at the time.

Thread has certainly found a different tangent to wander off on.

 

[cagey]

RPM was everybody's way of introducing jags into the hobby that had a vested interest in them at the time.

Thread has certainly found a different tangent to wander off on.

There has been some movement in the discussion. I do like that it has remained respectful and informative....... well done everyone

 

[SpottedPythons]

SXR is no longer a going concern.

I know... and on the subject of closed breeders, apparently Snake Ranch's animals (pied stimmies, black woma, etc.) were seized after Martin Kennedy was arrested.