harlemrain
Well-Known Member
All I know is he bred them himself from what he said were 2 coastals, but looking back now with more knowledge than I had then they looked like port mac pythons to me or intergrades, whichever you like to call them
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All I know is he bred them himself from what he said were 2 coastals, but looking back now with more knowledge than I had then they looked like port mac pythons to me or intergrades, whichever you like to call them
N
Norm
Guest
In earlier posts Ron said your snake is from Coffs Harbour, wasn't sure if you were told its a Coffs Harbour python or it was bought from there.
harlemrain
Well-Known Member
Just bought from there, the guy I got him from just called him a coastal not a Coffs Harbour Python (Whatever that is?)
N
Norm
Guest
By Coffs Harbour python I mean a python found in the wild from there, its locality.
Also sorry Ron but you've got your intergrade zone wrong, between newcastle and coffs is the zone not Gosford and Newcastle.
Also sorry Ron but you've got your intergrade zone wrong, between newcastle and coffs is the zone not Gosford and Newcastle.
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ronhalling
Very Well-Known Member
Hey RedFox, scattered throughout the forum are plenty of pics of our girl but just for you i will condense a few here for you.
......................................RonAttachments
ronhalling
Very Well-Known Member
Hey Norm, what i actually said was "if The Coastals start at Coffs and the Diamonds start at the Vic border shouldn't the Intergrade Zone make more sense if it was encompassed by the area from Newcastle to Gosford" seeing as how it is only 160kms from coffs to port mac and its 1000kms from port mac to the Vic border.
.....................RonP.S @ Blue i feel embarassed to pick up on such a wealth of knowledge such as yourself and i know it was probably just a small brain fart but "Morelia Spilota Variegata" is a Darwin whereas we have "Morelia Spilota McDowelli" here.
..................................Ron
N
Norm
Guest
Ron, I don't mean to be argumentive but above is what you said. Maybe I misinterpreted it?
By the way, I think both snakes in this thread are really nice snakes.
andynic07
Very Well-Known Member
Why can there be no pure coastal carpet pythons in the intergrade zone or do you mean just at Port Macquarie?
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ronhalling
Very Well-Known Member
Yeah my bad what it should have read was "what i actually meant was "if The Coastals start at Coffs and the Diamonds start at the Vic border shouldn't the Intergrade Zone make more sense if it was encompassed by the area from Newcastle to Gosford" seeing as how it is only 160kms from coffs to port mac and its 1000kms from port mac to the Vic border.
............................................................Ron
Skeptic
Well-Known Member
The edges of the intergrade zone would most certainly be blurry. I would be surprised if I was to stumble upon a coastal or diamond slap bang in the middle though
RedFox
Very Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure what norm meant was on the borders of the coastal and intergrade zones you would expect to see both variants of Morelia spilota. Same on the diamond/intergrade border. But Port mac is pretty much in the centre of the intergrade zone so it would be expected that there would only be intergrade same as in the centre of the diamond zone there is only diamonds and centre of the coastal zone only coastals.
I'm not disagreeing with Ron as I know very little about the subject and haven't being herping around port Macquarie (which is now on my bucket list), but given the definition of a intergrade as seen in the wiki tab, this is what would be expected.
I'm not disagreeing with Ron as I know very little about the subject and haven't being herping around port Macquarie (which is now on my bucket list), but given the definition of a intergrade as seen in the wiki tab, this is what would be expected.
N
Norm
Guest
Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I meant Redfox. Ive been making these posts on my phone and therefore they haven't been as detailed as if I was at home on my computer.
For anyone interested, track down some of the other threads on intergrades, theres stacks of them. Some of them address the subject a lot better than we have here.
Sorry for the hijack harlemrain, you certainly got more than you bargained for!
For anyone interested, track down some of the other threads on intergrades, theres stacks of them. Some of them address the subject a lot better than we have here.
Sorry for the hijack harlemrain, you certainly got more than you bargained for!
ronhalling
Very Well-Known Member
Ok i will agree we are in the Intergrade Zone here in Port Mac and mine and harlemrain's Morelia are probably Intergrades even though she got hers from coffs harbour, but you need to read this excerpt to see why we get so damned confused: The exact range of Morelia s.cheynei is difficult to ascertain. The fragmented nature of its habitat and its often sympatric relationship with Morelia s. mcdowelli make defining this taxon, and its distribution difficult.
The southern edge of the general range of the jungle carpet lies at about 20 degrees south latitude, near Bowen. This form is strongly associated with the various river systems that drain the Atherton Tableland. Jungle carpets are also found along the watercourses lying north of the Tableland, from Julatten moving north through the Daintree region.
Carpet population located further north on the Cape York Peninsula are poorly understood. Some references designate them as mcdowelli, variagata, or cheynei. The taxonomic status of the animals in this area poorly defined at best. Animals from the Cape York region visually can display characteristics of all three sub-species and it seems likely that this area represents an intergrade zone between the three forms.
As little as one hundred years ago there still existed large amounts of rainforest habitat from Townsville, north, to the Pascoe River. With the development of modern logging equipment, 95% of this rainforest was destroyed, limiting the distribution of Morelia s. cheynei. The Resulting secondary growth and agriculture in those areas has allowed the advance of carpets pythons that are phenotypically similar to Morelia s. mcdowelli.
The relationship and areas of intergradation between these two taxons are convoluted at best and are largely the result of the last century of human habitation and utilization of the area. What the natural relationship between these forms was, prior to the destruction of much of the old growth rainforest is lost to us. and now you see why so many of us get so confused with them describing McDowelli and Variagata in the same region and trying to marginize an intergrade zone for 3 seperate types in 1 small area (no hair left now...and nothing is more scary than a bald fatman) and i don't think we really need to appologize to harlemrain because this has turned into a very educational (maybe a little frustrating) thread and she should be enjoying it. And i have not enjoyed myself this much since my snake ate my mother-in-law he he he .............................Ron
The southern edge of the general range of the jungle carpet lies at about 20 degrees south latitude, near Bowen. This form is strongly associated with the various river systems that drain the Atherton Tableland. Jungle carpets are also found along the watercourses lying north of the Tableland, from Julatten moving north through the Daintree region.
Carpet population located further north on the Cape York Peninsula are poorly understood. Some references designate them as mcdowelli, variagata, or cheynei. The taxonomic status of the animals in this area poorly defined at best. Animals from the Cape York region visually can display characteristics of all three sub-species and it seems likely that this area represents an intergrade zone between the three forms.
As little as one hundred years ago there still existed large amounts of rainforest habitat from Townsville, north, to the Pascoe River. With the development of modern logging equipment, 95% of this rainforest was destroyed, limiting the distribution of Morelia s. cheynei. The Resulting secondary growth and agriculture in those areas has allowed the advance of carpets pythons that are phenotypically similar to Morelia s. mcdowelli.
The relationship and areas of intergradation between these two taxons are convoluted at best and are largely the result of the last century of human habitation and utilization of the area. What the natural relationship between these forms was, prior to the destruction of much of the old growth rainforest is lost to us. and now you see why so many of us get so confused with them describing McDowelli and Variagata in the same region and trying to marginize an intergrade zone for 3 seperate types in 1 small area (no hair left now...and nothing is more scary than a bald fatman) and i don't think we really need to appologize to harlemrain because this has turned into a very educational (maybe a little frustrating) thread and she should be enjoying it. And i have not enjoyed myself this much since my snake ate my mother-in-law he he he
.............................Ron
longqi
Very Well-Known Member
We found many pythons around Port Stephens that most definitely did not look like diamonds
Ive got a photo of a wild nearly full stripe, coiled up on a branch, from Bobs Farms that everyone says full coastal
We found many more that most definitely were pure diamonds
Yet Buladelah and points North seemed to be all pure diamond until you reached the so called Intergrade area
Same thing all through the Hunter etc
Ive got a photo of a wild nearly full stripe, coiled up on a branch, from Bobs Farms that everyone says full coastal
We found many more that most definitely were pure diamonds
Yet Buladelah and points North seemed to be all pure diamond until you reached the so called Intergrade area
Same thing all through the Hunter etc
B
Bluetongue1
Guest
Thanks for the correction Ron - slipped into old habits there for a moment. I did not want to complicate the issue with actual distributions but it has already happened. So time for a more in depth explanation.
Firstly you need to understand how closely related these subspecies are. You could take any two mature animals of opposite sex and expect to get viable and fertile offspring. In evolutionary terms, all the subspecies originated from a common ancestor. The different patterns that have developed are in response to environmental selection. You only have to look at Diamond hatchlings which are marked more like a baby Coastal. The darker colour of diamonds suits to the colder regions it occupies by increasing the rate absorption of the sun’s rays. Where temperature wasn’t so important and camouflage was, you have the development of the Coastal (Eastern) Carpet colouration. And so forth.
For these different forms to develop as distinct groups, they need to be genetically isolated from one another. So some mechanism needs to exist to prevent interbreeding and gene flow between the developing differentiating populations. The barriers can be Geographic e.g. distance, a region of unsuitable habitat; Behavioural e.g. breed at different times; Chemical e.g. depend on different pheromones to stimulate sexual attraction; Visual e.g. male-female recognition is through colours and patterns. Whatever the barrier or barriers were, they now seem to have disappeared to a large degree.
A Possible Scenario
[These are my thoughts only based on logical possibility and nothing else]
Diamonds can be found along coastal NSW to the mountains almost to the Queensland border. Natural intergrades can be found south to just north of Newcastle. What this suggests to me is that coastal carpets have extended their range from Queensland to mid-NSW and that some time after doing so, the natural barrier to them interbreeding has broken down. It could have been pheromone based and one species has crossed a pheromone trail of another species at the same time as suitor of that second species comes on the scene. Looks funny but smells right, so it mates. The offspring may well react to either or both pheromones, come their turn to breed. It would seem apparent that there were pockets and areas of surviving Coastal Carpet populations but land clearing and human activities have almost certainly fragmented and reduced these, if not entirely wiping many out. I say that because the intergrade genes have not been totally subsumed by the Diamond populations. Irrespective, it is not a simple and well defined area of overlap and what applies to one area may not be the case with another.
Blue
Firstly you need to understand how closely related these subspecies are. You could take any two mature animals of opposite sex and expect to get viable and fertile offspring. In evolutionary terms, all the subspecies originated from a common ancestor. The different patterns that have developed are in response to environmental selection. You only have to look at Diamond hatchlings which are marked more like a baby Coastal. The darker colour of diamonds suits to the colder regions it occupies by increasing the rate absorption of the sun’s rays. Where temperature wasn’t so important and camouflage was, you have the development of the Coastal (Eastern) Carpet colouration. And so forth.
For these different forms to develop as distinct groups, they need to be genetically isolated from one another. So some mechanism needs to exist to prevent interbreeding and gene flow between the developing differentiating populations. The barriers can be Geographic e.g. distance, a region of unsuitable habitat; Behavioural e.g. breed at different times; Chemical e.g. depend on different pheromones to stimulate sexual attraction; Visual e.g. male-female recognition is through colours and patterns. Whatever the barrier or barriers were, they now seem to have disappeared to a large degree.
A Possible Scenario
[These are my thoughts only based on logical possibility and nothing else]
Diamonds can be found along coastal NSW to the mountains almost to the Queensland border. Natural intergrades can be found south to just north of Newcastle. What this suggests to me is that coastal carpets have extended their range from Queensland to mid-NSW and that some time after doing so, the natural barrier to them interbreeding has broken down. It could have been pheromone based and one species has crossed a pheromone trail of another species at the same time as suitor of that second species comes on the scene. Looks funny but smells right, so it mates. The offspring may well react to either or both pheromones, come their turn to breed. It would seem apparent that there were pockets and areas of surviving Coastal Carpet populations but land clearing and human activities have almost certainly fragmented and reduced these, if not entirely wiping many out. I say that because the intergrade genes have not been totally subsumed by the Diamond populations. Irrespective, it is not a simple and well defined area of overlap and what applies to one area may not be the case with another.
Blue
N
Norm
Guest
Ron, you keep referring to Harlems snake being from Coffs Harbour. She has stated that she bought from a breeder in coffs but he never said it was a coffs locality. Longqi describes different populations having different appearances, I have seen a photo of a wild python from the bulladelha area that looked almost perfect diamond, though it was a bad photo. This seems to support longqi comments.
ronhalling
Very Well-Known Member
Sorry Norm, you are dead right there and i should have thought about that a bit more, but in my haste to point out the location of her Morelia i did not think about it's locale, ie that breeder might have a male and female from down here and bred them making the offspring Port Mac locale but bred in Coffs Harbour (lol i got too excited) and thank you very much Blue for your complex yet uncomplicated description of what an INTERGRADE really is and how the INTERGRADE ZONE is actually defined (see it did not take a length of 4x2 after all) I think where i was getting it wrong was not applying any flexability in how M.S. McDowelli and M.S. Spilota were seperated by locale. Now that i realize this more everyone can now breathe a sigh of relief and can now cancell the lynch party that was probably being organized for this person of Port Mac locale .....................Ron
.....................Ron
N
Norm
Guest
Lol! No lynch party Ron! Just good old fashioned debate! It's all good fun.Longqi appears to have a very good knowledge of intergrades ( of most things actually ), especially of the Port Stephens area which interests me cos I have some pythons from there. Also Pythoninfinate who has managed somehow to stay out of this intergrade debate has a way of explaining it very simply. Where are you Jamie??
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harlemrain
Well-Known Member
I spent half the time scratching my head and re-reading lol but very informative
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