ID please :)

[ronhalling]

I spent half the time scratching my head and re-reading lol but very informative

It was very very informative Harls, lol for awhile there i thought i was going to have a meltdown till Blue came along and saved me, AGAIN my dear i am sorry for hijacking your thread but in retrospect it was good that i did as i think alot of those who read it got some good info from it. ......................Ron

 

[harlemrain]

It wasn't "hi-jacking" all this info is more likely than not very relevant to my snake :lol:

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I reckon just leave it as is Harls, noone is going to question it, mine is recorded as "Morelia Spilota McDowelli" and until proven otherwise that is how it shall remain, and @ "Ramsayi" i do realise this is the intergrade zone IE where the territory for coastals overlaps the territory for diamonds (for those who don't know) but that does not mean there are no pure diamonds or pure coastals here. ....................................Ron

Actually, it does mean that in this area (I live here too), there are NO "pure" Diamonds or "pure" Coastals... The snakes here have a quite variable appearance, and you'll find that this occurs even within siblings from the same clutch. To suggest that there are "pure" Diamonds and Coastals coexisting alongside each other, as well as the things we call Intergrades, implies that they are selective about the appearance of the animals they mate with, but of course this doesn't happen.

I've been in the area for over 10 years, I've seen many pythons on the roads and on properties from Taree to Kempsey and beyond in each direction, and I've never seen a snake which I could call a "pure" Diamond or a "pure" Coastal, every one of them has had elements of both to a gretaer or lesser extent.

It's not until you go south of around Port Stephens for Diamonds, or north from Coffs for Coastals, that you see animals which could reliably regarded as "pure," whatever that may mean in the context of Carpet Python genetics as they are currently understood.

Jamie

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Lol! No lynch party Ron! Just good old fashioned debate! It's all good fun.Longqi appears to have a very good knowledge of intergrades ( of most things actually ), especially of the Port Stephens area which interests me cos I have some pythons from there. Also Pythoninfinate who has managed somehow to stay out of this intergrade debate has a way of explaining it very simply. Where are you Jamie??

Ha! I'm here! A few things to say here (I've already said a bit in the post above)! Firstly here, Very much of what we read here is dependent on what we individually perceive as a Diamond, a Coastal or an Intergrade. The things I call Diamonds may not be the things anyone else calls Diamonds, but I base my IDs on very specific characteristics - the main feature being small rosettes (7 scales or less), whitish or yellow (not brown) spots on each scale (to a greater or lesser extent - sometimes almost non-existent, leading to an almost black python with tiny rosettes). I'm pretty inflexible about this, and snakes with these characteristics are less frequently encountered the further north from the Gosford area you go, up to around Port Stephens. North of Port Stephens the pythons you will encounter have increasingly bold markings with larger rosettes.I would actually be very surprised if the things we call (by appearance) "true" Diamonds are found anywhere near the Qld border - I certainly have never seen one up here in the Port Macquarie area.

As far as identifying a captive bred snake and being able to ascertain its likely geographic origin, unless it is very clearly a Diamond such as I've described above, it would be impossible to say where its origins lie. As snake such as the OP shows here could come from anywhere north of about Newcastle - I've seen very similar animals from southern Queensland, and around here in PM - so even if we disregard the possibilities facilitated by captive breeding of mixed-heritage animals, you may never be even close when assessing the geographical origin of one of these things. It could be anything from anywhere north of a pretty well-defined area around Port Stephens.

Jamie

 

[ronhalling]

Thank you Jamie for weighing in on this subject, you are another here who's opinion i respect greatly, i was just too bullheaded to accept the fact that our animals were not "pure" as the animals i had seen in the Cairncross area had no identifiable markings that made them stand out as having any M.S.Spilota in them, in fact if you had seen them you would be more likely to say they were more M.S.Variagata than M.S.McDowelli in appearance, and as i said a couple of Diamonds i have seen at Shelly Beach looked more like Gosford locale Diamonds with all rosettes and no splotch type markings. Thanks to Norm, Blue, Skeptic and now yourself i have seen the error of my thinking and can now see more clearly what is meant by the term INTERGRADE where originally i was thinking X, whoa is me lol .............................Ron

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Ha - no worries! Don't forget also Ron, that there is a good chance that we'll see escapees from time to time around here (in built-up areas - lots of people have Diamonds here) so you can add those to the mix as well. But if you see a "true" Diamond and even a similar Intergrade, they look like chalk & cheese.

And then there's the historic thing of the common names people use and have used for decades or more... locally there seems to be about a 50-50 chance that people who aren't involved with snakes but see them from time-to-time call them either Carpets or Diamonds. It's what dad used to call them so that's what we call them...

I should say that what I'm describing here is based solely on appearance... genetics is probably an entirely different story...

Jamie

 

[Norm]

Thanks Jamie, like I said you have a way of explaining things very well. Wish you lived closer I'd love to catch up some time for a chin wag!

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Thanks Jamie, like I said you have a way of explaining things very well. Wish you lived closer I'd love to catch up some time for a chin wag!

Well, I do jump on the bike occasionally and get down to the Newy area from time-to-time... I'll keep you posted. Just put the kettle on...

J

 

[Norm]

Kettles always on stand-by...that is if the beer fridge is empty!

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Kettles always on stand-by...that is if the beer fridge is empty!

Back around 1975 I did something very silly by combining a visit to the Octoberfest in Perth and riding home on a (then) high powered motorcycle... so I swore off mixing even one glass of alcohol and motorcycling at the same time and I've never broken that rule... but if I stay overnight...

So kettle is fine!

J

 

[Norm]

Back in 1975 I was only 2 year old!! Kettle it is!

 

[Becca-Marie]

I didnt exist lol

Sent from my LG-P690f using Tapatalk 2

 

[longqi]

Lol! No lynch party Ron! Just good old fashioned debate! It's all good fun.Longqi appears to have a very good knowledge of intergrades ( of most things actually ), especially of the Port Stephens area which interests me cos I have some pythons from there. Also Pythoninfinate who has managed somehow to stay out of this intergrade debate has a way of explaining it very simply. Where are you Jamie??

Port Stephens has 3 distinctly different pythons in close proximity
One very small isolated area has the blackest diamonds Ive ever seen
Anna bay and Swan bay have plenty of high yellows
Mangroves around Marsh rd over to Lemon tree many that I would call intergrade or even full coastal
because some of those are monsters compared to diamonds

cannot upload other pics sorry

 

[Wally]

Same snakes with a variety of apparel.

 

[Bluetongue1]

Jamie,
I don’t recall ever seeing a bike parked around the house or houses, to be more correct. A temporary hiatus from riding? I must admit I had a similar experience and from that day to this, if I had so much as one beer, I would not ride the bike.

Human want to be able to put things in boxes. That way we can put a label on it and when we refer to we are comfortable about knowing what we have in mind. Classifying living things is one of activities of putting things in boxes. The problem is, nature is not that simplistic. Natural populations are dynamic entities undergoing change, both over time and distance and at varying rates. Where the existing populations are clearly defined from neighbouring populations, due to cessation of gene flow, the boxes work well. Where there is adaptive radiation and separating populations but still on-going gene flow between them, the boxes no longer fit so well.

This is why the concept of a species complex was introduced. It recognises that you can have gene flow between identifiably different species at the extremities of their distribution. The same applies with subspecies. The change from one species or subspecies to another is a spectrum, complicated by our traditions of species identification based on specific morphological characteristics which can often be all over the shop within a given area of the distribution. Drawing lines on a spectrum is hard enough. Due to the complexities of the genetic nature of any given individual, individual characteristics usually do not show a continuous gradation spatially. Multiply the complexity of the task by the number of characteristics being used. There is no such thing as a fine continuous gradation. Usually, identification of the species or subspecies populations at extremities of the distribution is the best you can do.

Jamie, your definition of a Diamond based on physical features is consistent for animals from Newcastle to Gippsland. Clearly, the underlying genetic makeup is likely to be similarly consistent i.e. what degree of variation may exist will be minor. The value in your description is that it provides a definitive benchmark to differentiate “pure Diamond” from other than. Sincere thanks for that.

Longqi,
Here are the photos you sent me a long time ago. (They come from the Port Stephens area.) You might like to comment further on each....


Blue

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Yep Mike, I've had bikes on & off since about 1974, all BMW sports bikes, R90S '74-'80, K100RS '84-'90, and in an attempt to reactivate my rapidly fading youth, I got a BMW K1300S a couple of years ago ... I love it, but Deb is not so enamoured with the idea ... I realised quite early on that bikes and alcohol are a very bad mix...

Jamie

 

[moosenoose]

Looks like a nice snake. Who genuinely cares what it is (unless you're planning on breeding pure line snakes. I've got a stunner jungle x coastal from a breeder who ran out of space after a burn-out in an enclosure and subsequently resulted in a few oddballs :lol:

I suppose what matters is if they are trying to fob it off at a premium price which suggests it's a pure line animal, and in realistic terms intergrades are a natural occurring snake anyway.

I had to sing a song for my hybrid :lol:

 

[longqi]

Longqi,
Here are the photos you sent me a long time ago. (They come from the Port Stephens area.) You might like to comment further on each....
View attachment 291487View attachment 291485View attachment 291484

Blue

Those three snakes all came from an area close together in Port Stephens
One in the middle with my mum is????
I could not categorise that as pure diamond yet it has many diamond features
That one and first one used to use my airing closet above the water heater to have clutches
Both were wild and wandered in and out as they pleased
Last one was caught in a bushfire next door and after treatment just hung around for the free tucker

[no cats or dogs permitted on that property and it was like the garden of eden]

 

[Norm]

Without looking like dead ringers, the first 2 resemble in some way the 3 Port stephens pythons I have. The last one looks the most pure diamond like to me. The 3 I have all have similarities with out looking identical.

 

[Bluetongue1]

Thanks Peter.

I guess if you were to try and quantify the relative amounts of Diamond versus Coastal in them, you would have to say they were well and truly predominantly Diamond. Not to be entirely unexpected given their locality. It certainly shifted the zone of overlap of the subspecies a lot further south than I had previously though. The physical distance than zone covers is mind boggling to me. I have struggled to satisfactorily account for what is happening there. Whatever it is, I don’t believe the answer to be a simple one. Nature is truly fascinating.


How about that Jamie. I started riding about the same time – my brother had a 125 given to him. I bought a 250 Honda a few years later, then a BMW R100/7 about 6 years down the track. Rode it across Australia and back on my own. It is still sitting on blocks in the shed. How come bikes are attractive to single girls but wives don’t want to know about them? I am jealous of your most recent acquisition. At least you don’t have to learn again how snick the gears in. My first gear change had me look overing over my shoulder to see how much metal had fallen out on to the road. Lol. They are a precision engineered and beautifully balanced machine.

Mike