keeping illegaly

[Tristis]

if you keep snake they shouldnt be able to escape i have kept snakes for 9 going on 10 years and have never lost one snake or lizard. its not that hard to stop them escaping.

 

[Tristis]

vets are yes

 

[Sdaji]

No worries Sdaji we can all be a little "Clumbsy" sometimes.

Yeah, and and apparently we can also be enough of a moron not to understand the damage that exotics could do too. We might even be stupid enough to point out things which support the banning of exotics as arguments for legalising them.

 

[Sdaji]

if you keep snake they shouldnt be able to escape i have kept snakes for 9 going on 10 years and have never lost one snake or lizard. its not that hard to stop them escaping.

You're quite right, it is possible to make sure you never have an escapee. Many people are able to prevent escapes, but clearly there are many people who can't. You and I can prevent our animals escaping as well as we like, but it won't stop someone else's getting out.

A reasonable way of getting a very, very rough estimate of the proportion of native vs exotics in captivity is the proportion picked up by snake collectors in cities. I know several snake catchers in Melbourne, they frequently get carpets, children's etc, occassionally they get other natives and very rarely they'll get a corn or boa. It would probably be around 2% of the total number of escapees (I'm not including things like tigers, browns, etc which are indigenous). Yes, I know that some things are more likely to escape than others, corns are more likely to be noticed than Children's etc etc etc, there are all sorts of confounding variables, but it's a reasonable way of surveying and getting a rough idea.

 

[Kris]

Okay, I know I had myself a doozy of a stupid night last night and posted in response to things I should have read at least 4 times over first....but I'm going go out on a limb and call for help deciphering the logic here (I notice I'm not the only one who's picked up on this point)....

Cane toads....introduced species...therefore exotic....
Reptiles from other countries....therefore introduced species...therefore exotic....

If the cane toad was bad for the ecosystem here then how can that possibly be an argument in favour of introducing yet MORE exotic species????

Now I've read over the post which confused me 8 times and I still can't see how that one makes sense.

So please...enlighten me?

Cheers (And please, no flames, it's a question I've just posted NOT an opinion), Kersten.

 

[Guest]

Sdaji what are you on about?
Did i say we should import exotics? I dont see anywhere that i said that.
I said I am into carpets and tree snakes so I don't know if you are reading my posts backwards or something but your bringing up points that don't reflect on anything I have said.

 

[Sdaji]

Thanks Kris, you said what I did but in a way in which will not get the moderators delete happy

 

[Kris]

No problem Sdaji, I like my head attatched to my neck and to be honest I did wonder at first if I was just having a mental moment :|

 

[Jason]

as for people asking to by stuff but not having a license, well i get that alot at work. yesterday, some kid came in about 13-14, he was keeping in a three foot by one foot tank with no heat or uv an adult eastern bearded dragon that he cought two weeks ago, a pregnant jacky (well i dont think this kid would no if it was pregnant let alone a female) and two young water dragons that he cought about 2 months ago, he came up to me at work and asked me "for some unknown reason my lizards arent eating, why?" not only this he was scared to reach in and touch them, i asked how much he has fed them and he said he has put 5-10 insects in the tank (for them all to fight over) in the last few weeks, and he told me he doesnt want to spend any money he was just curious if there was something wrong. i tried rweally hard to get him to let the go or build an out door pit in the sun, telling how to do it, telling him some web sites. but he wasnt interested, he said he will see how they go. i could have screamed, i dont think i have ever been so angry with someone befor he was such an........ i couldnt even educate him, he just didnt care. :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

 

[Sdaji]

Sdaji what are you on about?
Did i say we should import exotics? I dont see anywhere that i said that.
I said I am into carpets and tree snakes so I don't know if you are reading my posts backwards or something but your bringing up points that don't reflect on anything I have said.

Maybe you're thinking that more of what I'm saying is directed at you than it is.

 

[Guest]

No worries Sdaji we can all be a little "Clumbsy" sometimes.

Yeah, and and apparently we can also be enough of a moron not to understand the damage that exotics could do too. We might even be stupid enough to point out things which support the banning of exotics as arguments for legalising them.

You might want to get out of the sun for awhile seems to be getting to your brain, Or lack there of :lol:

 

[Kris]

Can we please try not to resort to name calling and insults....please........a logical polite debate would be refreshing....and painless for the scared little newbies like me.

Kersten.

 

[Jason]

If the cane toad was bad for the ecosystem here then how can that possibly be an argument in favour of introducing yet MORE exotic species????

i dont think any one here is in favour of keeping exotics, im against it.

Cane toads....introduced species...therefore exotic....
Reptiles from other countries....therefore introduced species...therefore exotic....

anything that is not native to an area is an introduced species, eg. rough scaled pythons, are native to north- western australia, that makes them an introduced species into nsw, for instance if a rough scale was to escape and start a population in the bluemountains then this would be an introduced species, if it was to out compete other snakes then it would techniqualy be an introduced pest (i think) because it is endemic to western australia not eastern.

i have actually heard from various reasourses about a wild population of cornsnakes near the central coast nsw

 

[Kris]

That's awful Jason. And I certainly do see your point.

I do wonder though if perhaps we're lumping all illegal keepers under the same umbrella here. Before anyone has a go, just think about it for a second.....

There is a very big difference between people who knowingly keep animals which are wild caught (in most states) prohibited, or keep them without licenses and people who simply don't realise that it is illegal to keep and wild caught animal, an animal that is an exotic (and let's face it some probably don't even realise what they have IS an exotic) or keep reptiles without licenses.

I know there's no excuse for ignorance, and I do think anyone keeping any type of pet should educate themselves about them first. I'm not advocating, or really even condoning these practices, just pointing out that it happens. But think about how many people out there (no I'm not asking for a show of hands, or pointing fingers) started out by picking up a lizard out of their yard as kids and keeping it in a fishtank only to find out much later that they had in fact broken a law????

I know in the eyes of the law (supposedly) it's all the same, but let's not have the mob mentality about people who keep illegally, in some cases all that's required is a little education and all is fixed.

Cheers, Kersten.

 

[Jason]

But think about how many people out there (no I'm not asking for a show of hands, or pointing fingers) started out by picking up a lizard out of their yard as kids and keeping it in a fishtank only to find out much later that they had in fact broken a law

i did, but i discovered really quickly what i was doing wrong because as all people should do when obtaining and getting a new animal is reasearch, i did just that, and i discovered all the things that i was doing wrong and fixed them, but the problem lies with those who see there wrong doings but dont give a stuff about it. but back to the original question of how many exotics people think there are in comparison to natives in captivity, i reckon the only way to really know would be to have another emnisty, this way the issue can be assessed and future numbers estimated.

 

[Morelia_Hunter]

Sdaji with all your studying you would then be able to enlighten us about the amount of animals that need to escape and breed for them to become a threat to native animals? How many generations would it take and how long before we have a problem? I have been to many countries where legal importation is allowed and the only ones where they have had problems have been where large amounts of reptiles have been handled inappropriately. With this I mean thousands have been released by accident over ten or more years. In florida where the climate is right (this is a port of entry for some imports into america), they have got problems with species like iguanas. They only have this problem because the animals escaped in sustainable numbers. That is why you have problems with cane toads, they were relaesed by the thousands. These then bred by the thousnads and their offspring bred by the tousands. That is where the problem came in. I am not condoning the keeping of exotics, I am just saying you would have to do a lot more than have a few specimens escape of a species for them to establish them in a foreign environment with its own predators. By the way I also did the same type of studies at uni! I just observed a different angle to the whole learning experience. I have only seen exotics on license since I have been here. In any case who would want to keep corn snakes in any case? They are not real snakes, give me a big old python anytime!!!

 

[Jason]

another interesting question is why are people either for or against exotics in captivity.

im against it and that cause i did year twelve biology and i learnt the devistating effects introduced species have on our ecosystems. that and the fact that i reckon most of the best animals in the world are found here in australia. just look at the cane toad, nobody really thought that would have such a negative effect on the country but hay... it is, when they where brought in people thought they would do us a favour will no ill effects aftere all they where just a few toads, and the problem is alot of keepers think that exotic snakes are just a few snakes and that it couldnt happen to them. but there are so many examples of exotics causeinhg us so many problems.

 

[Kris]

but the problem lies with those who see there wrong doings but dont give a stuff about it.

I agree completely, the people breaking the law deliberately are where the problem lies. I'm just wondering how many of them would turn over they're (potentially) money making animals during an amnesty? And what about those who have emotional attatchments to their animals and aren't keen on the possibility of their exotics being euthanised?

Oh and perhaps I didn't make myself clear before...Yayo, I'm just wondering if you can help me understand your statements from earlier in the thread?? If you read back you'll see where my confusion lies.

Kersten.

 

[Jason]

Morelia_Hunter thing about how many babys a boa gives birth to? dont forget they are live. if sombodys gravid female boa gets out and has babys you have got something like 30 live exotic snakes in one area and it just takes time, as i said before the broen tree snake is a pest over seas, they didnt realeas hundreds, they reckon there was only a couple now look at the problem. look at rabbits, origanally i think there was about 15 rabbits or so realeased i australia, and people thought that they would have no problems or effects on the land, now there are 100's of millions of rabbits and the money to fix the problems and impacts is coming out of your tax, so in the end you and i are the ones paying for this.

 

[Magpie]

Sdaji with all your studying you would then be able to enlighten us about the amount of animals that need to escape and breed for them to become a threat to native animals? How many generations would it take and how long before we have a problem? I have been to many countries where legal importation is allowed and the only ones where they have had problems have been where large amounts of reptiles have been handled inappropriately. With this I mean thousands have been released by accident over ten or more years. In florida where the climate is right (this is a port of entry for some imports into america), they have got problems with species like iguanas. They only have this problem because the animals escaped in sustainable numbers. That is why you have problems with cane toads, they were relaesed by the thousands. These then bred by the thousnads and their offspring bred by the tousands. That is where the problem came in. I am not condoning the keeping of exotics, I am just saying you would have to do a lot more than have a few specimens escape of a species for them to establish them in a foreign environment with its own predators. By the way I also did the same type of studies at uni! I just observed a different angle to the whole learning experience. I have only seen exotics on license since I have been here. In any case who would want to keep corn snakes in any case? They are not real snakes, give me a big old python anytime!!!

I'm not for or against, but I do obey the law. But Florida has Hundreds of exotic ferals, not just one or two. Consider our whole top end has a climate very suitable for herps and you can see why it would be a problem.