keeping illegaly

[Morelia_Hunter]

I am not saying its impossible and yes i know there are lots of feral species, i am saying that the import industry is massive!!! If you have not been involved with it you would not know what you are dealing with. I saw shipments with thousands of animals in them. Remember these animals are also not adapted to their foreign environment, or its natural enemies. A boa would have up to fifty babies but less than 10% of them would survive in their natural habitat let alone in an unfamiliar environment? And you dont allow import into Australia, so you dont even have a persent of the worlds imports happening here. Of course I have not seen any Illegal animals since I have been here. I also dont live in the top end but in Melbourne with its horrible weather, very few exotics would survive!!!

 

[Dicco]

It was only a hundred or so toads released.

Melbourne may not be perfect for a lot of exotics, but there are a hell of a lot of other places perfect for them.

 

[Hickson]

Remember these animals are also not adapted to their foreign environment, or its natural enemies. A boa would have up to fifty babies but less than 10% of them would survive in their natural habitat let alone in an unfamiliar environment?

That's an incorrect statement. Some pst species are pests because they are introduced into an environment where there are no or relatively few natural predators. Cane Toads are a classic example. And when you give them an abundant food supply that has not evolved to cope with that sort of predator, their populations will explode. Just like the Brown Tree Snake in Guam.

I also dont live in the top end but in Melbourne with its horrible weather, very few exotics would survive!!!

Are you seriously suggesting that it would be OK to import exotics because they won't become established in Melbourne?

:shock:

Hix

 

[Sdaji]

Sdaji with all your studying you would then be able to enlighten us about the amount of animals that need to escape and breed for them to become a threat to native animals? How many generations would it take and how long before we have a problem?

How long is a piece of string?

The short answer is:

One or more, but usually more. That depends on the species, reproductive output and survival rate, and also how you define "problem". Quite possibly our only feral snake (which is now well established) managed to establish itself here after only a single individual was introduced (accidentally). Yes, it's a parthenogen, I know, I know.

Interesting you say you've done the same studies, I'd be interested in hearing about them. I was involved in this type of research at first while employed as a research assistant and I'm currently near the end of my honours year, I'll be writing my thesis about bioclimatic modelling. It's extremely easy to shoot holes straight through pretty much any of the bioclimatic analyses carried out before a few years ago.

 

[Retic]

I love reading these threads and also love statements like this 'i dont think any one here is in favour of keeping exotics, im against it. ' :lol: Yeah right.
The problem we have at the moment is that because there are no controls (other than being illegal which is no control at all) these animals are being bred in a completely unregulated manner and there is every chance that animals will get into the wild one way or another. My argument from a fence sitting point of view is that at least licensed animals could be monitored and NPWS would have an idea where some of them are.

From speaking to quite a large number of keepers over the years it is fair to say that an absolute minimum of 50% would jump at the chance.
Another favourite of mine is when people talk about them and I say I would have them again if they were legal they say don't you like native snakes !!!!

 

[Morelia_Hunter]

Come on Hix, you know im not saying that. I am not condoning the import of exotics. I just dont think people realise how big the problem has to be for animals to become ferrel. I am just saying there is very little information out there on the topic. I know that there is a similar study taking place in South Africa to establish what commonly kept exotic species might become problem animals! And guess what, they cant assess anything at the moment due to a lack of information. I also just have to mention that we have allowed regulated imports of most species for the last 50 years and have almost no pest animals except the infamous red eared slider. They are a problem in most countries. The only reason why cane toads are so prolific is because you die if you eat them. And I am not talking about parthenogenic species but species that need another sex to breed! How many specimens. And these all have to escape near each other and stay near each other till they are mature, and of right size to breed. Forgive me but sometimes my english dries up!

 

[Dicco]

I'd like to know what the purpose of NPWS knowing what's out there is especially if you can get pretty much anything? What;s the purpose of this?? I can't see legalising helping at all except allowing an extremely larger number to be kept. If it's only available to experienced keepers, inexperienced would still keep illegally ect. I think public awarness is the smart thing to start with, along with more effort into catching keepers ect ect.

 

[Sdaji]

Non parthenogens: two (or one gravid female).

Bunnies aren't poisonous, neither are cats, in fact, both are very palatable. That doesn't seem to have slowed them down much. Flower Pot Snakes aren't poisonous either... Red Eared Sliders..... Brown Tree Snakes..... Fruit Flies.... Horses....

 

[Kris]

I figured if I left the computer for an hour or so that when I came back there'd be an answer..there isn't.... could it be that there isn't one and someone is dodging the issue....

 

[Hickson]

Come on Hix, you know im not saying that.

Yes, I kinda figured you weren't. But what I don't know is why you bothered to say it as it doesn't really contribute to your argument in anyway.



Hix

 

[Morelia_Hunter]

Reptile examples Sdaji! This is a reptile forum isnt it. We are discussing exotic reptiles are we not? I dont think bunnies and cats and camels have anything to do with the capability of a reptile to inhabit and occupy a new habitat! Always clever.

 

[Hickson]

I figured if I left the computer for an hour or so that when I came back there'd be an answer..there isn't.... could it be that there isn't one and someone is dodging the issue....

Sorry, I must have missed your question (or thought someone else answered it) - what was it again, please?



Hix

 

[Hickson]

Reptile examples Sdaji! This is a reptile forum isnt it. We are discussing exotic reptiles are we not? I dont think bunnies and cats and camels have anything to do with the capability of a reptile to inhabit and occupy a new habitat! Always clever.

That's the same argument the govt used back in the 30's.
"Rabbits and foxes have nothing to do with it - they are completely different to a toad."

 

[Morelia_Hunter]

Hix not all of us have the wisdom of age behind us! :wink:

 

[Hickson]

Then maybe we should listen to the wise. Or at least, to the well-informed.



Hix

 

[Magpie]

There is no reptile examples becasue we don't allow the importing of reptiles! (Well there is red ears even then...)
You mention camels, what about water buffalo? Both have one baby in a good year, are easy to track down, need good water and food sources etc yet STILL become a problem. What about an animal that has 50 babies a year and can go years without food and is almost impossible to track?

 

[Morelia_Hunter]

I have not been around since the thirties. And now there is more evidence showing what can happen and it has not happened in lots of countries where people had the savvy to contorl the import. Every country has examples of ferrel animals but just how many of those include reptile species.

 

[peterjohnson64]

Once again we are back into the area of expetise of others in this forum so I will defer to their judgement. However, I understand that the ban on keeping exotics is actually form the federal department of agriculture, not the state departments of wildlife. The NPWS in NSW did actually issue exotic licences in 1997 only to be told by the Depty of Ag that they were illegal and to stop doing it. If a person fails to renew their exotic licence then it can't be re-issued.

I would imagine that the Dept of Ag is taking advice from scientific experts in making their decision.

and from a politcal point of view, if they allow it and then it becomes a problem its the governments fault. If they keep it illegal and then it becomes a problem, its the fault of the illegal keepers. Food for thought.

 

[Dicco]

Considering we have the most diverse and largest number of reptiles in the world It would seem appropriate to believe we are more at risk as reptiles can flourish here. Also, most of the really up areas of the world like Europe and North America and Japan have a much less diverse reptile fauna and reptile habitats than places like South America and Australia, although I would assume there could be exceptions to this as I'm no expert on which contries have the highest number of exotic reptiles being kept.

 

[Hickson]

It's a pretty well-known fact that not all escapes/introductions work. The majority don't take for a variety of reasons.

But when one does become established, it can do a lot of damage and be very difficult to eradicate. Not to mention costly. And that's the risk - you don't expect it to happen, but it does.

The Precautionary Principle at work.

And MH: I haven't been arond since the thirties either - it's called research.



Hix