My first venomous snake handle!!!! <----no need for capti

[GreenWillow]

How can you compare a person who operates on his own snakes to millions of innocent people slaughtered by a dictator or the innocent slaughter of Whales by the Japanese? Bit different don't you think? Ray may cause harm to his own animals but he isn't effecting an entire population unlike Hitlers stance or the act of culling vulnerable species of aquatic mammals.

Please re-read the fourth paragraph of my post.

If a society stays silent on an issue they see is wrong, then there is every chance nothing will change. If, instead, members of that society continue to voice their opinions loud and clear then there is a chance they may bring about some change and stop something they see as injust, immoral, cruel, illegal, ridiculous or just plain wrong.

I am not trying to stop you saying what you think. I just pointed out some situations where God knows what may have happened had some folk not said what they think.

Some people think NOONE should cause harm to ANY animal, no matter whether or not they "own" it!

To take the argument to it's furthest degree, or draw another long bow, would we sit by quietly while a father beat up his son because it was "his son"?

 

[JandC_Reptiles]

Ok but how is CONSTANTLY bagging out Ray Hoser (regardless of topic) and continuously arguing about Venomoids going to help any?

As I said if it is to inform newbies of the proceedure a simple link to Rays site will give all the detailed information they need. They can then determin for themselves how they feel about it. There is NO reason to call the guy names, insult his intelligence &amp; slander him.

Anyway whats with Afro? Why is it a big thing now that his opinions are NOT OF APS ANYMORE? I guess having a differing opinion IS an issue after all.

 

[cris]

Some people think NOONE should cause harm to ANY animal, no matter whether or not they "own" it!

These ppl are called vegans :lol:

 

[GreenWillow]

Yes, I agree with you that there is no need for the insults and slander. In a perfect world (and don't we wish!) people could express how passionately they feel about issues without needing to resort to this.

But atleast arguing about topic keeps it fresh in peoples minds. I, personally, am having difficulty forgetting about the new IR legislation :roll: Though I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing :?

Re other matters that are not related to this thread, I will pm you.

 

[Ramsayi]

If you want to find out about what happens with regard to how his voids are created then go to the petition site and look at the links on the right hand side of the page.The info on most of those links take you to Hosers site.Also look at the long list of official supporters from ALL over the world.

If you disagree with what he is doing then sign the petition if not then at least you have some facts.

J and C,For someone who doesn't care about things that don't affect you directly you always seem to bang on about Hoser/venomoid threads.Might be just me but I find it a tad odd.

 

[JandC_Reptiles]

I understand that lilly, &amp; it is a valid point.
But passionate or not it is a breach of APS rules.
I don't think just because a member feels passionate about a certain topic they should be able to slander a person. It would be no different to having an activist join this site and slander all its members for keeping animals caged. They wouldn't last here too long &amp; you know that to be fact. I am sure not 1 member here would appreciate being abused simply because some1 else has a differing opinion.

Ramsayi,
Banging on? No that would be everybody else.
I am simply stating facts, slandering people is against APS rules.
And what he does dosn't effect me. But reading constant repetative slander does. It irates me.

 

[Australis]

Ive already posted the Petition link which has plenty of links to Hosers site. All of which is enough to Educate someone on what he is doing regarding Venomoiding.

 

[TrueBlue]

slander, wheres the slander??.
all i see are peoples opinions?, and IMO, ANYONE who calls themselves an animal keeper and have to surgicaly modifiy the animals for their own safety are incompetent in what they are doing and should not be doing it. simple.!!.

 

[andrew_555]

I agree generally with what is being said, the only concern that i have is that it seems particularly one sided. I would rather like to hear responses by Ray Hoser.

 

[JandC_Reptiles]

Do you really think Ray would want to join this site and give a response? The mob would lynch him (which has happened on numerous other sites).

As for the slander, insinuating that he glues animals mouths shut is slanderous &amp; a defaming of character. But hey dig up any post containing the words Ray Hoser or Snakebusters and you will see plenty of slander. I also think the venomoids are for the benefit of the audience of his displays in his opinion, it has nothing to do with his safety, confidence or incompetance as far as I am aware. I am sure he is just as confident handling a non venomoid After all hasn't Ray also got Elapids that are not modified? And those that are now voided were they not in his possesion before the proceedure? (obvious since he did the proceedure himself) So it is fair to say in order for him to get his licence as well as a public display licence he would of had to show experience with Elapids? And I am sure alot of members jumped at the chance to vouch for him lol. Don't sound incompetant to me.

Or will you now imply that any1 can get a licence, in which case you are calling the officials incompetant in their job?

 

[andrew_555]

Of course i dont think he would come onto the forum. It is a shame, in circumstances such as this it is important that he justify his actions, for his sake as much as the community.

 

[JandC_Reptiles]

Justify his actions?
Why should anyone have to justify themselves to a group of strangers over the internet? Thats my point, you all think you are his judge, jurror &amp; executioner rolled into 1.

 

[Australis]

Oh please :lol: , slandering Ray Hoser :roll: He is the master of slander himself!
He has been banned from forums across the world for his slander and threats!

And its not slander when its all true :wink:


I would be glad to see Ray contribute in a positive manner on any forum, i dont think anyone needs to worry about Raymond being upset by these claimed "Hoser Bashing" threads, he would be loving the publicity

Matt

 

[NCHERPS]

At the end of the day people on these forums and other like them will always feel it necessary to make comment, good or bad.
If you don't want to read another 'Venomoid' thread, then simply don't, just ignore it and move on, to keep commenting on it when you don't like this type of thread is adding fuel to the fire IMO, and only prolongs the threads existence and profile.
I agree that it has been brought up and spoke about alot in the past, but that is because people are passionate about the topic, the majority of course are passionate about stopping it from happening to other venomous snakes when it isn't necessary.
There are of course many new people joining APS every day, and so new members who haven't heard about Venomoids and Ray's chosen method of carrying out the proceedure can make up there own minds, you make out as if people haven't got the common sense to make up there own judgements after evaluating the evidence.
If there is indeed any real slander, I am sure that we will be made aware of it by Mr Hoser himself, and if it is justifyed then it will be removed.

 

[JandC_Reptiles]

There are of course many new people joining APS every day, and so new members who haven't heard about Venomoids and Ray's chosen method of carrying out the proceedure can make up there own minds, you make out as if people haven't got the common sense to make up there own judgements after evaluating the evidence.

How do I make out like people havn't got the common sense?
IT WAS ME who stated throw up the link &amp; let them make their own decisions.
IT WAS ME who stated post the petition link than leave it at that.
IT WAS ME telling others not to continuously repeat themselves &amp; force their opinion onto others. I insisted post a thread to the facts &amp; than leave the post alone as there is no need to repeat whats already been said and slander Ray (which is usually the outcome).

Tell me this, if that is the case &amp; your honest opinion NCHERPS, then why is there a need for MULTIPLE people to state the exact same thing in this 1 thread? I mean it was all said in post number 2 than again in post number 3 than 4 than 5 than 6 etc. Come on, you single me out and say I dont give people credit haha, I am not the 1 repeating the 15 posts before mine word for word trying to drum it into the newbies heads

 

[TrueBlue]

sounds to me like hes lost what competence he had to make him what to do something like that.
For the audience, pffftttt, a lame excusse to justify incompetence.

 

[dee4]

And I do beleive it was you JandC that brought up his name!!!
It also seems apparant that your the one throwing all the names around. Give it a rest, 1/2 the threads I read have you in there bashing someone or another and then trying to justify yourself. BACK OFF.

 

[JandC_Reptiles]

I havn't bashed anybody nor have I named anybody. I suggest you re-read through my posts. You wont see me calling Hoser incompetent in this or any other thread, You wont see me bagging Irwin or any other high or low profile Herper. You wont see me abusing owners or creators of Hybrids. You are very mistaken. I asked members to post a link to Hosers site &amp; than leave this thread alone because I know how anything to do with Ray turns out. And as usual it starts with 1 than 2 than 3 4 5 6 and so on posts about venomoids &amp; how its done by an incompetent Herper blah blah. As for me starting it pleaseeee, I really think you should re-read the thread, I didnt remark untill he 3rd page of bashings and insinuatings that Hoser should take up knitting and so on where I asked members not to turn this into yet another venomoid debate where they take cheap shots at Hoser. So I am in the wrong for asking members to be civilised? So be it then.

So name 1 person I have attacked, bashed or slandered?
I think you will find I am the 1defending the bashed &amp; slandered.

BACK OFF? My opinions are just as valid as any1 elses here. As I have breached no rules there is no need to tell me to back off just because I share a differing view. I am sure if it is needed the owners or moderators will let me know when I am out of line. BUT No worries I will back off now I have made my point.

 

[TrueBlue]

Like ive said i dont know nor have ever spoken to hoser, and ive said ANYONE, hes not the only person in the world to do this and my opinion is also directed at them.!!
once again,- ANYONE who does this to keep these animals what ever the reason IMO is incompetent, and yes should take up something more suited to their competence, theres many things they could do, i only gave a few examples.
you seem to have a problem of some sorts Jandc.

 

[cris]

In what way are these ppl somehow incompetant?