Neurological Concern

[Gavinc]

Good Afternoon All,

My very first post on these forms after joining up today, whilst some reading seems a bit of “tough love” I’m trying to investigate a bit about a snake I was looking to take on as the owner (friend of the mother in-law) indicated she was unable to provide the attention her Stimson needed these days, which came from one of her own clutches and is the last of her snakes. I’m in two minds to return the little tacker after reading the above comments as I feel the little fella may have some concerns after watching it last night.

I am still new to reptiles however we have had a couple of SWCP for about 2 years now who are around 12 years of age, as well as a 7 month old Stimson and a Bearded Dragon who’s about 4 years of age.

I was asked if I would like to take a Stimmy (about 4 years of age) which came from a cluster of her own adult Stimmies, As mentioned my mother in-law was asked by a friend of hers if we would be interested in taking the stimmy (no charge other than the transfer) as she was unable to provide enough attention to it. At the time I said no as I didn’t have any where I could house an additional snake however my wife purchased another enclosure for me for my 7 month old stimmy and thought this wuld be very suitable for the 4 year old.

Visiting the mother in-law we had mentioned we now have another enclosure if her friend was still looking to pass on her stimson yesterday, I Agreed to take this 4 year old so it could be given a home where it would receive much attention, as such her friend came over with her snake however I’ve noticed it is very small compared to a number of other stimmies I’ve see and it seems to be a bit bonkers (best way to say it “lol”) The snake seems to also have a prior neck injury (all healed now tho) but the snake just seems very odd in its behaviour so my question is if a snake could have some form of brain damaged for example? Now upon trying to educate myself I see a virus can be a very concerning option of cause which is now worrying me somewhat with my others.

Reading the thread (and thank you for the information) I need to ensure it is separated from any other reptiles and we need to ensure we wash our hand if and when handling it so nothing can be passed on.

Don’t get me wrong it is very chilled fells and great to handle just now and again startles easily and sometime ends up in an awkward position, upside down, twisted sometimes. We placed it in the enclosure last night and check on it a number of times and it seemed ok but I’m just not sure after handling the 12 year old's.

Would you suggest this is the issue this snake may have and should I return it back to the mother in-laws friend.

I’m unable to reply to the thread being so new however it relates to the following thread.

https://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/threads/neurological-problems-help.217147/page-3

Kind Regards
Gavin

 

[Herpetology]

The most notorious virus is the “sunshine virus”

Common symptoms include stargazing, corkscrewing, unable to right itself of upside down and general lack of control

Brain damage can definitely be a thing

Definitely keep it separated and quarantined from the others (sunshine virus can spread) and get it checked by a vet, some would argue to have not taken it at all unless checked by a vet, as it could destroy a whole collection.

One thing I have found in my younger snakes about a year old is they seem to be less coordinated,

As for being small, it could definitely be underweight for a 4yo, and could be using a larger feed or more frequent feeding or both however it doesn’t look too underweight from the pic

Good luck

 

[Gavinc]

Thanks @Herptology, appreciate your comments.

 

[Fall guys]

Over heating /under heating (mainly overheating) can also cause issues

 

[Gavinc]

Thanks Bl69aze

 

[Blighty]

Definitely keep that quarantine going.

I'll just add however (noting that you are in WA) that as far as I am aware the Sunshine Virus has not gotten over here yet - Thanks mostly to our strict import laws. That assumes of course that it wasn't illegally brought in from another state. Adeno (I think it was that one?) Virus broke out recently in the lizard population thanks to some breeders (and has made it's way into pet shops and collections) though I am not sure if it can infect pythons.

Still, I would be keeping an eye on it. Any chance of a video next time it starts behaving oddly? Might help get an idea.

 

[Nero Egernia]

I'll just add however (noting that you are in WA) that as far as I am aware the Sunshine Virus has not gotten over here yet - Thanks mostly to our strict import laws. That assumes of course that it wasn't illegally brought in from another state. Adeno (I think it was that one?) Virus broke out recently in the lizard population thanks to some breeders (and has made it's way into pet shops and collections) though I am not sure if it can infect pythons.

Your trust in our strict laws is misguided. We can't import pythons yes, but we can still import elapids and colubrids, both of which are capable of carrying the same viruses that pythons can carry.

 

[Blighty]

Your trust in our strict laws is misguided. We can't import pythons yes, but we can still import elapids and colubrids, both of which are capable of carrying the same viruses that pythons can carry.

Of course, you are not wrong. However having such strict laws certainly reduces risk. If pythons were allowed to be imported, then you would see a significant increase in the incoming traffic of snakes - This would only be natural. With more inbound animals then of course the risk would be increased by very large margins. As only Cat 5/C holders are really going to be doing imports for now, there are typically very few snakes coming in.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to get some of the pythons from over east. I would very much like a Bredli (not on our lists) or a Rough Scaled Python (Cat 5/C, but not readily available), but we deal with what we have.

Still, from my understanding Sunshine has not been diagnosed over here yet (could always change, and I always want to keep an eye out for it).

 

[Nero Egernia]

Of course, you are not wrong. However having such strict laws certainly reduces risk. If pythons were allowed to be imported, then you would see a significant increase in the incoming traffic of snakes - This would only be natural. With more inbound animals then of course the risk would be increased by very large margins. As only Cat 5/C holders are really going to be doing imports for now, there are typically very few snakes coming in.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to get some of the pythons from over east. I would very much like a Bredli (not on our lists) or a Rough Scaled Python (Cat 5/C, but not readily available), but we deal with what we have.

Still, from my understanding Sunshine has not been diagnosed over here yet (could always change, and I always want to keep an eye out for it).

You're not going to factor in the Common Tree Snake (Dendrelaphis punctulatus)? This species is highly coveted in Western Australia and it falls under Category B of the new licencing system. Anyone can theoretically acquire one right off the bat. Many keepers have already imported and are still importing them. Do you truly believe that these keepers have been quarantining these new acquisitions diligently for two years without cross-contaminating them with the rest of their collection? It's highly unlikely they have.

There have been rumors that sunshine virus is already here in Western Australia. While you can argue that these rumors have not been publicized, make no mistake that many keepers and perhaps even DBCA would try to keep such an outbreak quiet. I've no doubt that when adenovirus broke out those who originally had it in their collections were trying their best to keep things contained - if they were even aware they had it in the first place. Ignorance is bliss, right? Were it not for the efforts of those few customers who bought and discovered the infected animals people would probably still be ignorant that the virus is making its rounds in captive populations. That being said, how could you possibly keep a "look out" for sunshine virus? Are you testing all the snakes you've acquired? Are you quarantining them for at least two years? Are you testing them again at the end of the quarantine period? Are you refraining from visiting other people's collections and touching their snakes and snake products that may have come into contact with potentially infected snakes?

I seriously doubt DBCA will ever allow the import of species that are not native to Western Australia. But why not pythons that are native? Of course there would be a huge increase of incoming pythons if it were to happen. Why not? Prices over east are significantly cheaper compared to WA. The snakes over there are arguably better looking and more diverse in colour and pattern, too.

Magical invisible borders are not going to stop the spread of disease. To believe so is incredibly naive. But maybe I'm the naive one because people are still defending and even applauding the senseless and often outdated restrictions of WA's licencing system. Heck, people are doing the same thing in regards to the gas plant incident when anyone with a lick of interest in ecology know that it's anything but an ecological triumph. Quite the opposite, in fact.

 

[Blighty]

You're not going to factor in the Common Tree Snake (Dendrelaphis punctulatus)? This species is highly coveted in Western Australia and it falls under Category B of the new licencing system.

You know, I was nearly going to mention them especially seeing as they have been popular on the Perth Reptile Facebook group recently, but I decided not to check whether they were B or C.

There have been rumors that sunshine virus is already here in Western Australia. While you can argue that these rumors have not been publicized, make no mistake that many keepers and perhaps even DBCA would try to keep such an outbreak quiet.

I had not heard these rumors. Obviously I have missed them.

I've no doubt that when adenovirus broke out those who originally had it in their collections were trying their best to keep things contained - if they were even aware they had it in the first place. Ignorance is bliss, right? Were it not for the efforts of those few customers who bought and discovered the infected animals people would probably still be ignorant that the virus is making its rounds in captive populations.

Of course you are right. The initial breeders of those animals tried to hide it and silence the purchasers who discovered it. However, it was still discovered and then brought to public knowledge. How long had the original breeders been spreading it? I couldn't know. We do know now though.

That being said, how could you possibly keep a "look out" for sunshine virus? Are you testing all the snakes you've acquired? Are you quarantining them for at least two years? Are you testing them again at the end of the quarantine period? Are you refraining from visiting other people's collections and touching their snakes and snake products that may have come into contact with potentially infected snakes?

I am sure you can tell very well that I am not testing snakes for viruses I am not currently fearful of, nor doing much of the above. I also only quarantined the last snake for about 8 months. That paragraph fees like bait.

When I say I am "looking out" for Sunshine virus, I would have thought it obvious I am doing what the majority of people would be doing and keeping an eye out for confirmation that it has spread. Generally I would expect it to begin appearing on the same channels as Adenovirus.

Will there be delays in the information spreading? Sure. Will there be someone hiding it? Probably. If it starts ripping through collections will we hear about it? I imagine so, even if delayed.

I seriously doubt DBCA will ever allow the import of species that are not native to Western Australia. But why not pythons that are native? Of course there would be a huge increase of incoming pythons if it were to happen. Why not? Prices over east are significantly cheaper compared to WA. The snakes over there are arguably better looking and more diverse in colour and pattern, too.

I do not disagree with you. I find it absurd I cannot get NW Carpets or RSP's. Roughies in particular frustrate me due to how rare they are in the wild, and I do have concerns with the Cane Toad immigration potentially impacting them either directly or through harming their prey items.

Magical invisible borders are not going to stop the spread of disease. To believe so is incredibly naive. But maybe I'm the naive one because people are still defending and even applauding the senseless and often outdated restrictions of WA's licencing system. Heck, people are doing the same thing in regards to the gas plant incident when anyone with a lick of interest in ecology know that it's anything but an ecological triumph. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Look, I am just going to back out of this conversation. It was literally just someone asking advice about their Stimmie. If you feel it may have Sunshine, okay. You can feel that way. I am not here to argue otherwise - I cannot say 100% one way or the other. I was just suggesting the risk of it being so was low, but to still keep it quarantined.

I did not pop into this thread to talk about politics regarding WA license restrictions, nor to argue with someone over the internet about something clearly side tracked from the original post.

 

[Nero Egernia]

You know, I was nearly going to mention them especially seeing as they have been popular on the Perth Reptile Facebook group recently, but I decided not to check whether they were B or C.

I had not heard these rumors. Obviously I have missed them.

Of course you are right. The initial breeders of those animals tried to hide it and silence the purchasers who discovered it. However, it was still discovered and then brought to public knowledge. How long had the original breeders been spreading it? I couldn't know. We do know now though.

I am sure you can tell very well that I am not testing snakes for viruses I am not currently fearful of, nor doing much of the above. I also only quarantined the last snake for about 8 months. That paragraph fees like bait.

When I say I am "looking out" for Sunshine virus, I would have thought it obvious I am doing what the majority of people would be doing and keeping an eye out for confirmation that it has spread. Generally I would expect it to begin appearing on the same channels as Adenovirus.

Will there be delays in the information spreading? Sure. Will there be someone hiding it? Probably. If it starts ripping through collections will we hear about it? I imagine so, even if delayed.

I do not disagree with you. I find it absurd I cannot get NW Carpets or RSP's. Roughies in particular frustrate me due to how rare they are in the wild, and I do have concerns with the Cane Toad immigration potentially impacting them either directly or through harming their prey items.

Look, I am just going to back out of this conversation. It was literally just someone asking advice about their Stimmie. If you feel it may have Sunshine, okay. You can feel that way. I am not here to argue otherwise - I cannot say 100% one way or the other. I was just suggesting the risk of it being so was low, but to still keep it quarantined.

I did not pop into this thread to talk about politics regarding WA license restrictions, nor to argue with someone over the internet about something clearly side tracked from the original post.

My apologies that you feel as though I am baiting you. It was not my intention. It would seem that intentions are often mistaken while in written form over the internet. At no point did I feel we were arguing, and once again I'm sorry that you feel as though we were. I thought we were partaking in a reasonable discussion over the futility and misinformation that WA's python import ban was stopping the spread of python related diseases, when elapids and colubrids can carry the same diseases too, and yet they are permitted to be imported and pythons are not. Importation of reptiles is not as uncommon as you think. I have imported and exported many reptiles, and I'm sure a lot of WA keepers have done so too, as is evident on the Facebook pages you frequent.

Keeping a "look out" for sunshine virus is not as simple as one would think. Snakes that are infected can go for many years without showing any obvious signs. From my understanding, tests can also be ineffective on an infected snake that is not actively shedding the virus either. Adenovirus at this stage appears to be lizard specific, just as sunshine virus appears to be snake specific. I don't see how adenovirus can be appearing along the same "channels". At no point in my comments did I state that I believed the snake mentioned in the original post had sunshine virus. I'm not a vet. I would not diagnose any such ailment unless I was absolutely certain.

Your use of "obviously" and "obvious" appear to have snide nuances. At least, that's how I'm reading it. But perhaps I'm misreading your intentions? Once again, my apologies for derailing the thread. Carry on.