Question 3: String him up it will teach him a lesson.

[Pythoninfinite]

The entire situation is ridiculous for 2013. when these stupid laws were introduced, few species were threatened to the extent they are today by traffic, habitat destruction, Cane Toads etc, so the status quo was maintained by a "leave them where they are" mentality - maybe suitable then, but not now. In 2013, even if the habitat of a "protected" species is threatened with imminent destruction and it is the last stronghold of that species in the wild, keepers/breeders cannot go in and collect examples for captive breeding because they are "protected."

It's far easier for bureaucrats to let these things go extinct than change legislation which is 30 years out of date. Very sad...

Jamie

 

[Pitttownboy]

There are rare reptiles that are worth money and are much easier to get to than your two examples!

Can u say for sure that they are not already being taken

 

[Pauls_Pythons]

Back to the question, which seems to be getting lost here...

Should wildlife authorities enforce the laws regardless of the circumstances and intentions of the person who has 'caught' the reptiles?

short answer: no

The problem with this argument as I see it is where should the line be drawn? If some people are not prosecuted while others are treated as a criminal element how can the average ranger differentiate between the 2 or is it left totally to his discretion, (potentially influenced unfairly)?
The guidelines need to be established that are fair........while I think the majority of persons involved in this discussion will agree that there are cases that should or should not be prosecuted how can this be done fairly with the current laws? Laws need to be established that are suitable and the correctly policed. This country has so many laws but does little to police these that the system is a joke in most peoples eyes. We all know of people who admit openly to killing snakes but the authorities do nothing, yet a little boy saves a lizard from death and gets treated like he committed some inhumane act.

 

[wokka]

Having laws which make no logical sense means people will inadvertantly break them. Presumably there is a point to having these wildlife laws but I am not clever enough to work it out. In answer to the question- I dont know, because I dont know what the rule is trying to achieve. Laws for laws sake never work!

 

[cement]

The reptile hobby is impacted greatly by the misguided conservationists who think that the keeping of captive reptiles should be regulated for conservation reasons. Those who work in zoos and wild animal parks know about the careful stud books kept for endangered animals and the importance of managed breeding programs. This is totally irrelevant to the captive reptile hobby, but they don't seem to realise that."

This is a strange comment.
"impacted greatly"?... Does this relate to the founder of this thread and their recent project? Is the introduction of the Oenpelli into the hobby a "great impact" like you mention?

What is the difference between a python owner, keeping and breeding local specific animals, and selling them to the public.... and a zoo that does the same. When I say zoo......think John Weigal and the RSP and the recent Oenpelli project. Is this "true conservation"? As far as the gene pool goes its no different to someone who breeds a locale specific blue tongue.

I would go as far to state right here that that boy who got the lizard off the road is the MOST CONSERVATION MINDED INDIVIDUAL. In a pure sense he is the role model. It is the INTENTION that only matters.

Too often, I read and speak to people who frequent these forums/officers of the law/teachers/reptile keepers/ETC who will pontificate until the cows come home. What does all this jabber achieve? Certainly nothing on the scale of that young fellas actions.

In answer to the question..... whatever. It is what it is. Everyone has their own agendas.

 

[GeckoJosh]

Can u say for sure that they are not already being taken

Of course people are already taking them, but if it was legal that number would surely rise, its the same as any other profitable illegal activity

 

[pythonmum]

This is a strange comment.
"impacted greatly"?... Does this relate to the founder of this thread and their recent project? Is the introduction of the Oenpelli into the hobby a "great impact" like you mention?

What is the difference between a python owner, keeping and breeding local specific animals, and selling them to the public.... and a zoo that does the same. When I say zoo......think John Weigal and the RSP and the recent Oenpelli project. Is this "true conservation"? As far as the gene pool goes its no different to someone who breeds a locale specific blue tongue.

I would go as far to state right here that that boy who got the lizard off the road is the MOST CONSERVATION MINDED INDIVIDUAL. In a pure sense he is the role model. It is the INTENTION that only matters.

Too often, I read and speak to people who frequent these forums/officers of the law/teachers/reptile keepers/ETC who will pontificate until the cows come home. What does all this jabber achieve? Certainly nothing on the scale of that young fellas actions.

In answer to the question..... whatever. It is what it is. Everyone has their own agendas.

No, my comment certainly does not relate to Gavin and the Oenpelli project. It relates to an attitude I see often in the public where people consider all native animals to be endangered. It is the only reason I can see for having to keep detailed movement and keeping records for common species. There is no conservation value in keeping track of spotted pythons, bearded dragons, etc.

I think that there is value in breeding locale-specific animals, but this is not going to help wild populations which are being decimated by habitat destruction unless you can get the public interested enough to set aside land. The RSP project has made these fascinating animals accessible on a large scale. I hope that the Oenpelli project will do the same. These species may be saved from extinction, but nothing can bring back their habitat if it gets turned into a mine.

 

[cement]

No, my comment certainly does not relate to Gavin and the Oenpelli project. It relates to an attitude I see often in the public where people consider all native animals to be endangered. It is the only reason I can see for having to keep detailed movement and keeping records for common species. There is no conservation value in keeping track of spotted pythons, bearded dragons, etc.

I was just wondering how this attitude that you see so often, impacts greatly on the hobby.
The general public don't have any say in the hobby laws, and the newbies that buy into the common starter type herps are only buying a cool pet, so I'm confused by your comments.
If anything, keeping a reptile will only help make the public more aware of reptile keeping and maybe even a tad more inclined to take an interest in conserving our wildlife.
I don't see any "great impacts" on the hobby by "misguided conservationists".

Are there any stats or anyone keeping an eye on our wild herp populations?
How would we actually know what the position of any of the reptile species really is?

 

[wokka]

Are there any stats or anyone keeping an eye on our wild herp populations?
How would we actually know what the position of any of the reptile species really is?

I must agree that it makes no sense that the department seems more concerned about how many animals are in captivity than how many are in the wild. the implication in their name is that they care for wildlife rather than pets. There is no base data from which to work so we never know if or how effective licencing is!

 

[d-dutz]

So when I was younger I used to always pick up injured and non injured wildlife including reptiles if they were uninjured I would release them somewhere I thought would be safer than where I found them. If they were injured I would take them either to a vet that treated native wildlife (for free) or take them to the RSPCA...
from what I am hearing was this an illegal practice because at the time it felt like common sense :|

 

[shell477]

So when I was younger I used to always pick up injured and non injured wildlife including reptiles if they were uninjured I would release them somewhere I thought would be safer than where I found them. If they were injured I would take them either to a vet that treated native wildlife (for free) or take them to the RSPCA...
from what I am hearing was this an illegal practice because at the time it felt like common sense :|

From what I recall, it is an offence to move wildlife from where they are found. which is ridiculous if the animal is injured or in a dangerous spot! The amount of people that bring injured animals to me is quite a lot, rather than me having to go out and rescue them while in the meantime they could get hit or dissapear while it takes me time to get there.

I agree that some laws are very outdated and need to be scrapped altogether or amended to be more logical!

 

[BeAnZi]

i believe governments, pest animals , cats and dogs pose more of a risk to wildlife then good willed kids but I don't see them targeted to a serious degree

 

[lochie]

Growing up I was forever rehabilitating wildlife, from sugar gliders that the neighbours cat got a hold of right the way up to some big jungles and right back down to injured birds. Then release them back into my backyard or rainforest however you want to describe it.

For myself I find this topic quite fascinating, if I'm walking along a walking trail in the rainforest and come across a gorgeous healthy large GTP resting on a low lying branch, would I grab it and take it home? no

However what If I see a gorgeous GTP that was bright red or yellow as an adult. (or a albino woma or a hyper melanistic olive where or what species snake doesn't matter)

Would I grab it and take it home? I could lie and say no but I would seriously consider it. That's how some amazing genetics are brought into the herp hobby.
The only difference is most of the time people shut the hell up about the wild caught animal and just say that they had some odd ones come out of a clutch.
I'm just being honest about what everyone would be thinking and would possibly do.

At the end of the day, we are a group of animals that gets great joy out of keeping another animal captive and looking after them.
Simple,

 

[Ships]

Kids catching reptiles and keeping them is like a right of passage, any of us that have had the passion from a young age have done it and it will continue to be done whether legal or not. Perhaps for juvenile offenders, under the right circumstances, a cautioning system should be in place, which would educate them. Now if the juvenile is catching from the wild and onselling that is another matter entirely, but for the passionate youngster, which a lot of us were, cautioning is the way to go. Just my thoughts.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Growing up I was forever rehabilitating wildlife, from sugar gliders that the neighbours cat got a hold of right the way up to some big jungles and right back down to injured birds. Then release them back into my backyard or rainforest however you want to describe it.

For myself I find this topic quite fascinating, if I'm walking along a walking trail in the rainforest and come across a gorgeous healthy large GTP resting on a low lying branch, would I grab it and take it home? no

However what If I see a gorgeous GTP that was bright red or yellow as an adult. (or a albino woma or a hyper melanistic olive where or what species snake doesn't matter)

Would I grab it and take it home? I could lie and say no but I would seriously consider it. That's how some amazing genetics are brought into the herp hobby.
The only difference is most of the time people shut the hell up about the wild caught animal and just say that they had some odd ones come out of a clutch.
I'm just being honest about what everyone would be thinking and would possibly do.

At the end of the day, we are a group of animals that gets great joy out of keeping another animal captive and looking after them.
Simple,

Well, if you find a rare previously unknown morph of a common species, just move it out onto the road, catch it and say you saved it, and you need to keep it at home for a couple of years to ensure it isn't injured... that's how these things get into the trade here in Oz isn't it ? If we can't find it in the bush, we just get them sent over from the US or Europe, allowing a few months to explain that something that hadn't been here in centuries has suddenly been bred here not long after they were bred overseas...

In truth, removing one or a few easily accessible (on road or walking track) animals from the wild makes not a jot of difference to wild populations of reptiles. The biggest threat is habitat destruction - either by destructive searching for particular species (the granites in the WA wheatbelt are an example - they've been legally ***** and pillaged for Stimsons for 10 years now) you can gouge a coalmine, bugger the watertable, or level 100s of hectares of bush for a housing development without any consideration being given to salvaging the native animals from those areas (you'd be prosecuted if you tried), but catch one animal and take it home for a pet and you're in trouble.

Jamie

 

[Wild~Touch]

"catch one animal and take it home for a pet and you're in trouble"

It ain't necessarily so....Only if you are caught or dobbed in and made an example of

Cheers
Sandee

 

[Pythoninfinite]

"catch one animal and take it home for a pet and you're in trouble"

It ain't necessarily so....Only if you are caught or dobbed in and made an example of

Cheers
Sandee

Indeed Sandee, indeed! I was forgetting for a moment that there are lots of guardians with big sticks looking out for violations on APS... I hope they can forgive my anarchic views... or I may be forever damned !

Jamie

 

[Wild~Touch]

Nah...You're cool Jamie

 

[leonc]

The market price for reptiles is now much higher then back 30 years ago. Sure it isn't your average hobbiest that will go collecting GTPs in the wild but someone with the know-how going on a collecting trip could decimate local populations. I don't know where you come from (financially wise) but any reptile at $50 a pop would sound good to me. That's about double what your average Joe earns an hour. Certainly in the right areas finding a coastal every couple of hours wouldn't be too far fetched and you're doing what you love.

Surely,the prices are higher. Now,I can even tell it will increase drastically in the next years to come!! And,the population is decreasing while the production is increasing as well.

 

[RoryBreaker]

In truth, removing one or a few easily accessible (on road or walking track) animals from the wild makes not a jot of difference to wild populations of reptiles. The biggest threat is habitat destruction - either by destructive searching for particular species (the granites in the WA wheatbelt are an example - they've been legally ***** and pillaged for Stimsons for 10 years now) you can gouge a coalmine, bugger the watertable, or level 100s of hectares of bush for a housing development without any consideration being given to salvaging the native animals from those areas (you'd be prosecuted if you tried), but catch one animal and take it home for a pet and you're in trouble.

Jamie

In Queensland for example, the state government has never ever ever knocked back a coal mine. And once it's given the go ahead there is no government authority checking these coal mining companies for their environmental responsibilities, it's left to the company to make sure they are complying with any environmental laws. As if they are going to tell anyone about some animal that may cause all sorts of profit downgrades, their shareholders would spew. Every big company also requires all workers to sign a confidentiality statement where all company activities are protected and not to be divulged to anyone, especially media.

Yet we as reptile keepers have to do paperwork for each and every transaction for animals that are easy as pie to keep and to produce. It's a great example of money talks.

Now if you have some spare time, jump on google earth and look at the view of the landscape around chinchilla in Queensland, especially near Warra. We are witnessing the wholesale industrialization of the brigallow belt. Every coal seam gas well has a road and a pipeline connecting it to the next. The scale of the destruction has to be seen to be believed.

Sort of makes the hoops us licence holders have to contend with irrelevant to the big picture when the EPA or whatever they call themselves this week allow this sort of stuff happen on such a broad scale. But they are at the whim of their political masters, so really we should be bombarding the politicians ourselves if we want change.

Cheers