Question for Simon Archibold and 'Fuscus'

[Splitmore]

Hi Guys.
Just been skimming over the 'corn snake in the car park' thread and notice you two in particular are very opposed to anyone keeping exotics at, in fact it seems almost a personal crusade to dob in anyone who may keep them.While I respect your opinion on the topic, and know it's something that will be debated forever, my question to you guys is this.
What makes keeping an exotic reptile(one from another country) so different than keeping a native species in an area to which it doesn't naturally occour?
Simon I see you have just aquired a goulds monitor.Goulds monitors certainly aren't native to Newcastle so what makes it ok to keep one there? Surely it has the same risk of escaping and establishing a feral population as does someone who may illegally keep nile monitors. It also could potentially carry a disease that could wipe out the local lace monitor population yet you keep this animal with the full knowledge of all wildlife authorities and they are fine with it as well.
And Fuscus, I can only assume from your name you keep water pythons, again they aren't native to Adelaide but you keep them there anyway.Why do exotics pose such a threat to the local wildlife if they escaped but your water pythons don't?
There was an article in one of the Sydney papers this week about the critically endangered glossy black cockatoo. The main threat to this species wasn't some introduced pest but long billed corellas (a native species) that were escaped pets and had now established themselves and were competing with the glossy black cockatoo for nest sites.
Please don't take this in any way as a personal attack on either of you, I know many people on this site share the same view as you but I think we need to take a step back and look at the exotic reptile problem and the best way to resolve it.
The only reason I am in favour of the licensed keeping of exotics is so that it can be regulated. That way if some new and nasty disease turns up in someones collection, at least there is half a chance the source may be traced and the disease controlled. The way it is now with deasl being done in car parks there is no way of ever keeping track of whats being bred and where it is ending up. The recent amnesty proves that increased penalties aren't the answer, bring in capital punishment for keeping exotics and I guarantee this won't solve the problem.
Regards,
Splitmore

 

[Gregory]

Well said Splitmore.
I can't wait to read their replies.




Greg

 

[Dicco]

Thats actually a very good point. This should be interesting

 

[ad]

A very valid point. Defies arguement.

 

[Bryony]

i agree totaly
interesting argument

 

[Tommo]

i think the difference between your example about the birds is that because as reptiles it would be to cold at winter for them. if they could survive those condition then how come the species havent spread to those areas naturally

 

[Matty_2004]

The reason why we're allowed to keep reptiles from different states in foreign states is because most reptiles live in more than 1 state, and even if they are only in the 1 state, it's still in the same country and continent, they can't simply wonder over to another country and become a foreign species. If a water python is released in Adelaid, it won't do anything, it would be the same as if one came down from QLD into NSW.

On the bird issue, it's a problem between two native species. . .it's happening naturally, that's nature. Escaped pets or not, they're still a native bird to Australia and they have to share the same land as the Cockatoo.

It really is a hard issue to resolve IMO. I personally think however, that we should keep it the way it is, increase the punishment, and put more effort into stopping illegal trade because i would like to see the most natural result. Besides, the reason we admire exotic reptiles is because of the fact that they're different and because we can't keep them. Do you really want boa's to end up like bearded dragons and kept by nearly every herper? I'd much rather recieve the rewards by going overseas and seeing them. Difference is what makes things interesting, it would be a shame for this to be taken away from the herp world.

 

[spottedpython]

the indian rock parrot isn't native to australia

 

[Fuscus]

Spitmore, I will give a full refutal later on tonight. In the mean time I suggest you research your examples.

 

[basketcase]

Escaped pets or not, they're still a native bird to Australia and they have to share the same land as the Cockatoo.

youre right but in being right youre completely wrong. the fact theyre from the same country is insignificant cause they dont share the same space. put em together and u have problems just like with exotic species, its exactly the same

i know of ppl that keep exotics, ive even heard of ppl that have smuggled venomous exotics. ppl say they know the problem is bigger than everyone thinks but when you see how easily exotics can be accessed and kept in secret you know that penalties or any other detterent (sp?) isnt going to make any difference at all.

 

[moosenoose]

Big Breath......

 

[moosenoose]

This is how I generally feel on the topic too Splitmore. The problem with answering your question is that it?s not a simple clear cut case of whether it?s good or bad to have these animals brought into Australia. Here?s my spin on the matter- and these opinions are from my own, limited experience, from what I?ve seen & read.

The fines aren't deterring everyone, nor are the jail terms ? and just like illegal traffickers of anything; because they are illegal, the prices are often ridiculous, as are the profits that can be made by the unscrupulous people who trade in them. Regulating an exotics market will aid in rendering the illegal trade of these animals unprofitable, making it too risky for too little.

Perhaps on the other hand, it will be harder to stop the flow of exotics entering the country once the floodgates are opened slightly, and in that I mean, it?ll be more difficult to work out what was brought in legally, as opposed to illegally. At present, just about anyone who keeps a retic python, like a Burmese for example, you could easily assume, has gained them illegally (apart from the keepers who are exempt on those famed and elusive international licenses). This makes policing for these taxa by the authority for each state relatively easy, in a sense.

Perhaps when members here get upset over the matter, is just a case of being frustrated about how stupid people can be in making a rash decision about keeping these illegal taxa. Because, here goes;

1: For starters, these people who acquire exotics all seem to eventually get busted with them - eventually.

2: People who get involved with these animals, can?t see the wood through the trees. If you get caught with one measly corn snake, you can kiss your herp collecting day?s good-bye. Not only that, you?ll probably having some big hairy guy kissing you in jail?while your way too broke to make any phone calls after the fine you?ve also been slapped with! It doesn?t seem to me that a person can be that serious about this hobby if they are willing to gamble with it.

3: Personally, I believe it gives honest herpers a bad name, and directs an unwanted public spotlight on their hobbies. I would take a flying stab here that public opinion on our hobby would suggest that most people in the general public would like nothing more, than to ban people from keeping any sort of native animal. As an example on this, I know a guy who lives not too far from me, who hates reptiles of any kind; he has on one occasion asked me if it was legal to keep snakes & lizards. After I explained that it is legal, he looked at me quite seriously and said it was a shame, as he?d like to have reported this person, who incidentally lives nearly a suburb away from him, and have the collection confiscated, simply because he said, he hated snakes, and felt uncomfortable knowing they were there! :evil:

I don?t think I?ve answered anything here..DAMN IT! I think I?ve just convinced myself that they are better left out of the country!....now where has that brain gone!
:? :shock:

 

[Lester]

Spitmore, I will give a full refutal later on tonight.

This oughtta be good. Can't wait.

 

[Greg]

You're not wrong there Lester old mate.

 

[Splitmore]

On the bird issue, it's a problem between two native species. . .it's happening naturally, that's nature. Escaped pets or not, they're still a native bird to Australia and they have to share the same land as the Cockatoo.

Matty,
Thats the most ridiculous statement I've heard. How can you say it's just 'nature' when a geographical barrier that has existed for thousands of years keeping two species apart is overcome by mans intervention, resulting in the near extinction of one species?
Why isn't it just 'nature' then when man brings in an exotic reptile and it escapes here?

 

[Simon_Archibald]

Splitmore,
You raise a valid point regarding the keeping of species in different states than their natural habitats, but Sand Monitors actually do occur in NSW, including eastern parts of the state. Perhaps not in Newcastle, but much of a muchness.

My original argument in the other thread about this topic was not that keeping exotics should be illegal. I actually would love the chance and choice to own exotic reptiles if it were legal, but unfortunately it's not. Also, the reason I responded to that thread is this: someone get's told by a women that they have a Corn snake at home. This person points out that the lady's husband made suspicious looks because of this comment. Then other members of this site go on to say how much they hate this activity but they would do nothing about it. Another member says his mate / aquaintence collects wild Diamond python eggs and sells these as wild caught. Still, people complained saying how awful it is but that they would not do anything about it.

My point was simply if you say you have such a problem with this activity, but allow it to happen by not doing anything about it, do you really have the right to complain?

Now, everyone wants to say how much of a saint I think I am, and it's obvious by those comments they wouldn't know a thing about me. But, I certainly wouldn't whinge about a problem and later pass up an oppourtunity to do my bit in fixing the problem.

The thing is that everyone says, I'm just one person, I can't do anything, "face reality". Well if all those one persons out there would each do something, the results would be more substantial. Secondly, if people aren't willing to do anything about it (no matter how small their contribution seems), I simply don't believe they care about it as much as they say they do.

Also, it was stated by a member that the authorities simply couldn't care about such little details. I doubt that this member has ever done anything because I "dobbed" in a keeper (as I stated in that thread) and they had me ringing all different numbers, etc. They rang me back about 3 weeks later to let me know how it was going, and also tried to call me about 2 weeks after that but I was not home and they didn't leave details on the answering machine message. Can't tell you how it ended up - I didn't ring back.

Simon Archibald

 

[Splitmore]

In the mean time I suggest you research your examples.

I'll allow you to correct me then Fuscus, obviously I'm way off the mark somewhere.

 

[Matty_2004]

On the bird issue, it's a problem between two native species. . .it's happening naturally, that's nature. Escaped pets or not, they're still a native bird to Australia and they have to share the same land as the Cockatoo.

Matty,
Thats the most ridiculous statement I've heard. How can you say it's just 'nature' when a geographical barrier that has existed for thousands of years keeping two species apart is overcome by mans intervention, resulting in the near extinction of one species?
Why isn't it just 'nature' then when man brings in an exotic reptile and it escapes here?

I was un aware that the two were from totally different areas, but hey, i'm here for reptiles - not birds. I take back my comment. For this very same reason is why i think exotics should not be allowed, but this reason does not apply to the water python because of the fact that it wouldn't do anything that a carpet python wouldn't, it serves no threat. So maybe which species are and aren't allowed in should be decided by this, however, than people would just try to import the illegal ones anyway because they're different and no one else would have them...this leading back to the whole "different" statement in my first comment. Be happy with what we've got.

 

[Greg]

Also, it was stated by a member that the authorities simply couldn't care about such little details.

Aww, c'mon Simon, I thought we were on a first name basis. Feel free to call me Greg.

 

[soulweaver]

its a valid point splitmore, but the law is the law. Our wildlife is unique to that of every other country, and vice versa. Your example abt the monitors simon just got being moved to a different state and escaping proably wouldn't do much to our wildlife,

A. Cos the heat is different and they'd die.
B. (and/or )Over time they have already adapted to australias harsh enviroment and would just fit straight back in.

if you got two cats one being a moggy and another a pure breed and stuck them together, they wouldn't notice a difference, why would monitors be any different? simons monitors might adapt to natural species of N.S.W.

in the end, until the law changes we should all do our bit to protect what we have, cos one day it may not be here, and at that point its too late.