Lizardman
great point about crows etc
And how closely related are reptiles to birds
I know longpi posted this ageeees ago. But birds are reptiles, not just close birds
are reptiles.
So how do you explain the absense of any learnings when humans are born?
When a snake is born it already knows everything it needs to know to survive, a human needs to be shown EVERYTHING.
A snake knows when it is in danger. We have to learn that something is not good for us whatever it might be. I believe reptiles at least show no emotion but act simply on instinct.
As for cats and dogs since they are mammals like us they have the ability to learn things and so can develop what we might call an emotional attachment. Show me a video of a snake that has learnt something new to their baser instincts. Cobras swaying to music in India doesn't count.
How does a snake show fear when it strikes at you even though it knows it can't eat you, or through the glass of its enclosure. It is displaying territorial threats and will do that as many times as needed until it thinks it has warded the threat off. In the wild a snake turns and runs from a bigger opponent not because it is scared of it but because it knows it has been bested by a superior animal, that is the way of the
jungle. It isn't an emotion. It simply moves on to find an area it can control.
Firstly I think you mean absence of instincts at birth as those things that are known despite never being taught such as those known to a newborn organism are commonly defined. Then I say what do you mean by absence of instinct in newborn children? The most basic instinct a feeding response is well programmed into newborn children. Also I would argue that some part of social behavior is instinctual, (I agree the majority is learnt), the reason I would say this is through looking at people with say aspergers. These people in theory are raised the same as anyone else (of course within a margin of 'error') yet through an unknown function of the brain either in learning or instinctual concepts they are lacking. While it may be hard to rule out that this is not through learning I think it is more likely instinctual. My reasoning people with conditions like aspergers often have little trouble learning logical cognitive concepts (i.e. maths) but further can also similarly cope well with less logical concepts like paradox, infinity and quantum mechanics. While this shows they have at least some ability to view illogical concepts, these concepts cannot in my opinion link to any instinct. Social behavior on the other hand is a crucial part of human survival in the modern world and has every reason to be instinctual. I mean you yourself would agree that the response of one snake meeting another snake is instinctual? Why cannot a part of human social behavior be similar. This would mean most/many humans would have an instinctual factor to the way they socially interact. Thus it is shown both through a highly simple instinct that is shown in all organisms that feed, and a highly complex example for which I give no proof but show my reasoning, that humans do have clear instinctual factors when born.
Now onto the second part of your response. When a snake is born does it may know every instinct it needs to survive. I agree a snake has a clear feeding response, clear life cycle routine and in fact a clear majority of common/shared behaviors that are in my mind as well as yours, instinctual. But who is too say these instincts do not change over time? And if they do change over time is that not clear evidence that individual snakes have had different traits or responses to some environmental factor which is in fact not instinctual? I mean are you saying all instinct was just there in the beginning or is instinct the process of conditioning of many generations over a long period of time resulting in the unconscious programming of the animal to a certain response to certain stimuli? Ok so we say that in these instinctual developed situations we agree instinct comes into play and a relatively set response is elicited by the snake. But what of when a new stimuli is added? A new prey item for example. Every snake is a different individual, some will be curious enough at a new prey item and eat it, others will be more cautious and stick with regular prey items? If instinct is only a strong level of conditioning over a long period of time, than what is it that differs between these snakes for the different response to occur. We can rule out conditioning as the stimuli has never been seen before. We can rule out instinct as this appears to be a result of conditioning. Therefore I believe the difference is a choice. An example of problem solving at the absolute rock bottom lowest level, but an example nonetheless.
The next part of your response 'show you a video'. If you want me to find you a video of a snake being taught you are out of luck, I do not say a snake can be taught in this way. Conditioned yes (As vast amounts of anecdotal evidence suggests they can be), into feeding regimes, response to a constant stimuli as a constant situation. But this in no way changes that I think they do have an extremely limited and basic ability, but ability nonetheless to undergo a task based not of either instinct or conditioning.
For the last part of your response. I believe we come down to where I define emotion far differently from you. A snake running from a large predator, or striking through the glass. Sure this is instinct. The will to survive. What we humams define in ourselves as fear, I see only as an extremely complex version of this. Even in terms of irrational fear, something we can look at later and go "I know its not going to hurt me but I just can't stand it" (I am sure you have all had someone say this about your snake (Snake referring to the cladistic branch of reptiles. (Just to stop any jokes out there))). This response from humans is really either an instinctual (snake = bad) response, a response dictated by a conscious or unconscious event relating to the circumstance or through a society based understanding (snakes generally though of as dangerous = I shall fear them period). All of these fears relate back to a will for humans to survive (or not experience pain, or similar). Thus they are to me just a complex manifestation (The complexity driven by the excess complexity of the human relative to that of a snakes), of the same traits.
Thus and because of separate factors that I can hardly explain in my head I personally perceive instincts, conditioned behavior and cognitive ability to analyses a situation from a complex and self based point of view as different levels and complexities of what I define as emotion.
What places us at the top of the tree is quite simple really, it is our ability to look at something and ask ourselves WHY? That is abstract thought. To look for answers to questions we dream up ourselves. Why are we here? How did the universe get started. How far away is Andromeda. I am pretty sure there are not any apes or dolphins asking themselves these questions.
On a less serious note, how can we really know this (except for the andromeda part seeing as I doubt reptiles could know what is was regardless.) I mean seriously look at all the time a snake lies sitting in the sun, be pretty boring if nothing was going through its brain the whole time. Why should that something not be, 'Wow I wonder where I came from, I mean one day I was just like, here I am".
