Reptile Emotions Debate
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I think so. Will have to look it up on the international list of defined emotions
. But in seriousness; fear can be a response to stimuli, as can happiness. How can that not be coined an emotion?
longqi
Very Well-Known Member
Wookie
I had kind of hoped Mellissa had stayed in here
She is obviously from a scientific background so could have dropped a few links etc in
You really do need two sides to keep a good discussion going
I had kind of hoped Mellissa had stayed in here
She is obviously from a scientific background so could have dropped a few links etc in
You really do need two sides to keep a good discussion going
redlittlejim
Well-Known Member
Wookie, do you think that a reptile cant show loyalty? A member on this site has a bearded dragon that will not leave his side when he is walking around the house and the door is open. i think that shows some loyalty?
Wow, the argument's still going - that's great.
I wonder if we could approach this from a completely different angle, with an experiment.
Let's say we take a number of members from one species of reptile, enough to make a statistically relevant sample, and divide them into two groups. One group is provided only with the husbandry required for them to live healthy lives. The other group is provided with same and treated as "a member of the family", as Longqi puts it. Then we follow them for a lifetime.
It would be interesting to see what the differences in longevity and illness rates would be, if any. If there were, it wouldn't prove or disprove the existence of emotions; however, it could give us an idea of how reptiles respond to being treated as pets. If the illness/mortality rates are higher in "pet" animals, it would suggest regular handling is a negative experience for them. If they feel any emotions at all, these are also likely to have been negative, though not conclusively so. With that rider, we could then say a little more certainly that the species involved is not likely to experience any kind of attachment to their keeper.
Obviously, we'd need to do it with several different species, both lizards and snakes, because there's a good chance there will be variations. Personally, I'd love to see what differences would be found between social and non-social species of lizards. The addition of subgroups could finetune the experiment.
Another way to do it would be to get reptile keepers around Australia to fill out regular (voluntary) surveys. Either approach would draw out other interesting information as well.
I wonder if we could approach this from a completely different angle, with an experiment.
Let's say we take a number of members from one species of reptile, enough to make a statistically relevant sample, and divide them into two groups. One group is provided only with the husbandry required for them to live healthy lives. The other group is provided with same and treated as "a member of the family", as Longqi puts it. Then we follow them for a lifetime.
It would be interesting to see what the differences in longevity and illness rates would be, if any. If there were, it wouldn't prove or disprove the existence of emotions; however, it could give us an idea of how reptiles respond to being treated as pets. If the illness/mortality rates are higher in "pet" animals, it would suggest regular handling is a negative experience for them. If they feel any emotions at all, these are also likely to have been negative, though not conclusively so. With that rider, we could then say a little more certainly that the species involved is not likely to experience any kind of attachment to their keeper.
Obviously, we'd need to do it with several different species, both lizards and snakes, because there's a good chance there will be variations. Personally, I'd love to see what differences would be found between social and non-social species of lizards. The addition of subgroups could finetune the experiment.
Another way to do it would be to get reptile keepers around Australia to fill out regular (voluntary) surveys. Either approach would draw out other interesting information as well.
just watching 20/20 which is a sort of yank current affairs show and they did a story on infomertials and how the marketing is designed to work on your emotions. They are designed to make your brain release dopamine, which brings on the pleasure emotion. How do we measure dopamine responses in reptiles?
If they have dopamine then don't they feel pleasure?
If they have dopamine then don't they feel pleasure?
longqi
Very Well-Known Member
Fugawi
I think that is one of the major stumbling blocks because how would you measure pleasure responses in an animal that was stressing out by being restrained/probed/electro thingywhatsit or whatever they do to measure that stuff?
With a human you can explain what everything means and they will relax??
Renenet
Great idea with one probable drawback
That would be the time factor in that it would be a long term study
I think it could only be valuable if done under strict guidelines so personal observations by pet owners couldnt be classed as amorphism?? so that might rule out using individual keepers??
I think that is one of the major stumbling blocks because how would you measure pleasure responses in an animal that was stressing out by being restrained/probed/electro thingywhatsit or whatever they do to measure that stuff?
With a human you can explain what everything means and they will relax??
Renenet
Great idea with one probable drawback
That would be the time factor in that it would be a long term study
I think it could only be valuable if done under strict guidelines so personal observations by pet owners couldnt be classed as amorphism?? so that might rule out using individual keepers??
I was thinking the same thing longqi. If dopamine shows in the blood and you stroke the herp under the chin for a while, then you have to grab it and stick it with a needle, suck some blood and test it. In that time the herp will probably release the anger chemical, which probably cancels out the dopamine, giving the wrong result. You would probably need a catheter(?) in place to minimise the uncomfort.
By George I think I have it!!!
The answer!!!
St George Banks mascot is called .................(Dum, dum, dum, dum.)(Drumroll)....................Happy Dragon.........An Emotional Dragon.........They DO have emotions.LOL
By George I think I have it!!!
The answer!!!
St George Banks mascot is called .................(Dum, dum, dum, dum.)(Drumroll)....................Happy Dragon.........An Emotional Dragon.........They DO have emotions.
LOL
longqi
Very Well-Known Member
^^^^^
Bloody brilliant
Bloody brilliant
redlittlejim
Well-Known Member
Just out of curiosity, if reptiles can show favorites towards a person doesn't that basically prove emotion? Attachment? That is a fairly easy test! Proved hundreds of times! If a pet always comes to you or chooses u over someone else everytime! Just like a dog always chooses you so can a reptile?
carterd
Active Member
Only if you express it.
Jackrabbit
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Not sure that loyalty is an emotion.
Surely that just proves that the animal has learnt it will be "safe" with the person chosen or at least perceives no threat.
Not sure that can apply to a reptile. Most if not all reptiles have all their baser instincts when they are born. Animals like cats and dogs learn a lot as they grow up. That's how they become attached to someone. It isn't an emotional attachment, as shown by their ability to bite and attack the hand that feeds now and then.
Snakes will always bite if given the right circumstances. The fact that a snakes 'likes' to hang around your neck won't reduce the chances of it biting your hand if you were to hold a rat in it.
not really. People say they 'feel safe' when in a place or with someone. Is that an emotion? How do you describe the feeling of 'safe'. I think just because someone says they 'feel' something it doesn't have to be an emotional response.
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longqi
Very Well-Known Member
Littleredjim is conducting exactly this experiment every day for last few days
Results are being posted each day
Makes interesting reading
Jackrabbit
we have a baby burmese here only about 2metres long
It will push a rat off my hand then smash it
Only if I close my hand and tease it by covering the rat up, will it start getting ready to hit me
If the rat is just hung in front of it is smashes the rat first time every time
QUOTE}That's how they become attached to someone. It isn't an emotional attachment, as shown by their ability to bite and attack the hand that feeds now and then.
UNQUOTE
"Biting the hand that feeds you" is a human expression used to describe the equivalent of the same thing when done by humans??
But humans have emotions and animals dont???
Results are being posted each day
Makes interesting reading
Jackrabbit
we have a baby burmese here only about 2metres long
It will push a rat off my hand then smash it
Only if I close my hand and tease it by covering the rat up, will it start getting ready to hit me
If the rat is just hung in front of it is smashes the rat first time every time
QUOTE}That's how they become attached to someone. It isn't an emotional attachment, as shown by their ability to bite and attack the hand that feeds now and then.
UNQUOTE
"Biting the hand that feeds you" is a human expression used to describe the equivalent of the same thing when done by humans??
But humans have emotions and animals dont???
SamNabz
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I have read some of his results and really cannot see anything that helps prove if they have emotions or not.
I don't see what this is suppose to mean? Do you honestly think it is pushing the rat off your hand to avoid biting you?..
All these 'examples' you Pro-emotion users keep posting are not conclusive what so ever. It is also a select few of you that keep liking each others posts, but really I don't see you achieving anything... There will always be 2 sides to this debate but the bottom line is, after all the tests etc. that have been done, reptiles run on instinct.
Just accept it, stop trying to domesticate them.
Also the poll is definitely not worth going by for those who have mentioned it, I know of quite a few users who have voted 'Yes' for the fun of it...
Jackrabbit......Emotions are feelings, for instance pleasure is the release of dopamine into your body. You literally "feel" pleasure as the dopamine is released. If reptiles bodies release dopamine into their systems in a similar way then therefore they will have a similar "feeling" of pleasure or contentment. They will still "feel" the emotion but not necessarily "show" the emotion in the same way as us humans.
Sam......There is no bottom line yet. Have any of those tests involved monitoring the various chemicals in reptiles systems?
Sam......There is no bottom line yet. Have any of those tests involved monitoring the various chemicals in reptiles systems?
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Snakeluvver2
Very Well-Known Member
I diesagree.
Emotions are the personal interpretation of feelings.
Emotions are the personal interpretation of feelings.
Sam.......another thing. If reptiles run purely on instinct as you say has been conclusively proven beyond any doubt then explain why a pet Beardie does NOT show the initial survival instinct of flight or fight when it sees us? Yet a wild one will. It has therefore learned to suppress its natural instincts. We can then pick up the beardie and sit it on our shoulder where yet again it suppresses the instinct to run and just sits there. This simple experiment shows that they are NOT running purely on instinct.
Jannico.....You don't need to describe a feeling for it to become an emotional response.
Jannico.....You don't need to describe a feeling for it to become an emotional response.
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