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If they are available on permit, people who have them may go out poaching, then claim that they have bred them. Those animals can then be sold on permit. I think most people wont touch any animal that is off permit which i think makes for a small market in black market reptiles, however once a paper trail can be set up the market expands to just about anyone. These animals could have a market price well in to the tens of thousands, which would make these activities very attractive to some.
...

Bringing relatively rare species into captive breeding programs does not necessarily promote poaching. Indeed the opposite may be true or even a more likely outcome. There are some great and recent examples within the Morelia genus, one of the best being M. carinata. Although the price was initially very high for this species, after only a few short years of captive breeding there's been a considerable price drop. We've seen the same thing happen with native M. viridis. Due to the fecundity of pythons, their numbers usually increase exponentially in captivity. In other words, pythons usually have relatively large clutches and a high survival rate when in competent hands.
This last point is a critical one for M. oenpelliensis. My understanding is that they're considerably more sensitive than other species within the genus. However, the same was/is often said about M. viridis and sometimes about M. carinata, especially initially. With both of these precedents, the mysteries of their successful captive husbandry and breeding have been revealed in a relatively short period of time in good hands. The best hands so far have been those of Peter Krauss, although there's probably a small number of experienced herpers that would be just as capable. The responsibility of being first custodians of such magnificent species as these, is a great privilege and honour.
A back-up plan for this species survival (and many others) is perhaps the noblest benefit of being given the privilege of being able to keep native wildlife.
Do we want to go down in history as being the generation that sat by and did pretty much nothing as yet another priceless species disappeared into extinction like the Tasmanian Tiger?
 
You do have a way with works Kristy :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Edit FAIL :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

That's a good list, Peter. But none of those vowel words are in order. I always thought facetious was special for that ;)

And, Gordo, I like the word rythym, too. But I prefer it with an extra H :lol: We're not having the best editing day, you and me, hey, mate? :lol:

And, just so I don't look like I'm only reading this thread to pick on people's spelling :D, I think that captive populations could be a really good idea, and perhaps the way to do this could be similar to the dog breeding world, where people need to be registered breeders of pure-line animals. It means that the people that would want to buy these animals as pets still could, but if you were breeding for the purposes of conservation and in the interests of a particular species, you would be a "registered breeder" of that species. Meaning that your animals would have higher quality status (like a dog "with papers"), and if selling offspring, could put higher prices to your animals. It would also likely be the case that the people willing to do this extra bureaucratic step would be responsible breeders, so if possible or needed, their animals could, more than likely, be used for reintroduction schemes if appropriate (though, we had already ruled that out, right?).

It's only an idea, mind you, so no need to cry over it if you disagree. But I think that with sub-species like Oenpelli, and in the herp industry that is slowly but surely merging with the pet industry, that captive breeding programs that could be used to assist the conservation of the species (maybe, but it's better to try than not try, right?) could work successfully by modelling some of the successes of the pet industry.
 
I'm having a shocker of a week for spelling Kristy lol. Pretty ordinary of me considering i'm teacher too lol.

Oh and i'll hit you with a correction FAIL, it's actually spelt rhythm with only one Y hahaha.

And just to be a knit picker and keep this semi on topic, Oenpelli's are a full species not a sub species.
 
Dear All, (how did we get to DEAR.... but I like it)

This is the BEST thread I have read in so long, I am very impressed by the educated, concerned & learned opinions by the key posters...well done. this has made my week!
I have a very limited knowledge on this specie as most do, but I DO support and see the benefit of a captive breeding project and have personally purchased a pair of roughies from the likes of JW, who I support on his work and admire him and others I have met like him over the years...
Thanks guys...I truly appreciate the insight I have gained from this thread!

On a lighter note and something that may be funny to some who have a sense of humor... I was literally eating a packet of popcorn, which is the typical term used as a joke with threads like these as we all know, but I was eating it as it is a good source of fibre and one we usually keep for the kiddies, but Dad was enjoying with a Friday arvo beer....but after reading the riveting (no sarcasm or being facetious here) posts, I looked down after being so focused and I had popcorn all over my lap... it was like watching a movie that you are so into, you keep shoveling stuff in your mouth without noticing...LOL

Again thanks....
 
I've sent a few PM's out asking this but i'll put it out thereand ask everyone.

If anyone has reference material (books, research papers etc) that relates to what we've been talking about either directly or indirectly i'd be really keen to hear about them. If you know any chuck us a PM.
 
That's capital 'M' for Morelia, Kristy... if we're going down that path...

J.
 
and there is this button above that italicize scientific names. Cheers Kristy.
 
Gordo, do you have Woinarski's book, available from your Parks & Wildlife Service in Darwin?
 
That's capital 'M' for Morelia, Kristy... if we're going down that path...

Damn you Michael... I was trying to be a smart alec...

Jamie
 
Last edited by a moderator:
No, it's about the catastrophic decline of species in the NT - I'm sure if you look for it in their publications list on the Parks website you'll find it. I had it within 4 days of ordering in NSW. The name escapes me at the moment, but Slickturtle will know. As mentioned I'm near Derby in WA atm, and out of my home turf. My brains are scrambled (more than usual) because it's Mardi Gras day in Derby, and I've been working 15 days straight...

I don't imagine Mardi Gras day in Derby bears any resemblance to the event of the same name in Sydney...

Jamie.
 
There is a book called "Lost from our landscape- Threatened species of the Northern Territory" edited by John Woinarski et al- an excellent book- is that the one you're discussing before moving onto the gay pride of Derby?
 
Hello Kirsty

Good point there about experienced keepers.

Why don't you come to the herp conference in Cairns in October? I will be giving a talk there where I will be proposing a new top level rung in the Wildlife Keepers classifications. The new rung would be called Conservation Keepers and these are the type of people who will - in the first instance - be given rare or threatened species of birds, mammals, reptiles, amphibians and fishes by the Parks Authorities, to breed in captivity as an anti-extinction strategy. These Conservation Keepers would be people like Jamie Stuart or John Wiegel or many of our other top people in the reptile world. They will work hand in hand with their state wildlife agency. Once these guys breed up a good number of rare animals they can then on-sell them to experienced Wildlife Keepers and so on - till eventually - there will be so many of these rare animals in captivity that just about anyone who can show ability, can have them, afford them. See Australian Herpetological Sysmposium

Cheers

Slick


Edit FAIL :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

That's a good list, Peter. But none of those vowel words are in order. I always thought facetious was special for that ;)

And, Gordo, I like the word rythym, too. But I prefer it with an extra H :lol: We're not having the best editing day, you and me, hey, mate? :lol:

And, just so I don't look like I'm only reading this thread to pick on people's spelling :D, I think that captive populations could be a really good idea, and perhaps the way to do this could be similar to the dog breeding world, where people need to be registered breeders of pure-line animals. It means that the people that would want to buy these animals as pets still could, but if you were breeding for the purposes of conservation and in the interests of a particular species, you would be a "registered breeder" of that species. Meaning that your animals would have higher quality status (like a dog "with papers"), and if selling offspring, could put higher prices to your animals. It would also likely be the case that the people willing to do this extra bureaucratic step would be responsible breeders, so if possible or needed, their animals could, more than likely, be used for reintroduction schemes if appropriate (though, we had already ruled that out, right?).

It's only an idea, mind you, so no need to cry over it if you disagree. But I think that with sub-species like Oenpelli, and in the herp industry that is slowly but surely merging with the pet industry, that captive breeding programs that could be used to assist the conservation of the species (maybe, but it's better to try than not try, right?) could work successfully by modelling some of the successes of the pet industry.
 
Comments like yours make threads like this worth while too Scott.

Slick

Dear All, (how did we get to DEAR.... but I like it)

This is the BEST thread I have read in so long, I am very impressed by the educated, concerned & learned opinions by the key posters...well done. this has made my week!
I have a very limited knowledge on this specie as most do, but I DO support and see the benefit of a captive breeding project and have personally purchased a pair of roughies from the likes of JW, who I support on his work and admire him and others I have met like him over the years...
Thanks guys...I truly appreciate the insight I have gained from this thread!

On a lighter note and something that may be funny to some who have a sense of humor... I was literally eating a packet of popcorn, which is the typical term used as a joke with threads like these as we all know, but I was eating it as it is a good source of fibre and one we usually keep for the kiddies, but Dad was enjoying with a Friday arvo beer....but after reading the riveting (no sarcasm or being facetious here) posts, I looked down after being so focused and I had popcorn all over my lap... it was like watching a movie that you are so into, you keep shoveling stuff in your mouth without noticing...LOL

Again thanks....
 
I wrote a paper on initial feeding trials of a 4 meter one that I caught at cannon Hill in 1977. It was published in the ARAZPA (Aust, Regional Assoc. of Zoos and Aquaria.) technical bulletin. I don't have a copy as I had to bang it out on a stone tablet and photocopiers weren't invented in the Jurassic!! ARAZPA could probably pull it up from the ancient sediments though. This snake was the 3rd one known to whitefella science by the way. The first being found by Hal Cogger in 1971?, he identified it as a Carpet Snake (to his undying embarrassment). Brian Jukes - a school teacher from Oenpelli got the second (from which the species was described) and I got the third. I have a pic of it somewhere. How do you post pics on these fandangled forum things here?!!

Slick
Thanks folks.
 
A pic would be fantastic. Go to Post a thread...advanced.
It then says 'manage attachments'.
 
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