Settle An Argument Please :)

[Snapped]

I think they learn to tolerate it, some tolerate it better than others, but just to watch them is fascinating, if I couldn't handle my MD, I'd still have him, he's given me hours of enjoyment, just being a snake.

I'm always mindful that a lot of handling will stress out a snake, but I take him outside probably twice a week and let him have a wander around the yard, climb a tree (well, a small tree) get in amongst the plants....I get more from just letting him be a snake if you know what I mean. He isnt one to just sit there on you, he's always wanting to be on the go, and Im fine with that.

If you are looking for some basic stuff, you can't go past the Doc Roc articles on reptile husbandry, have a read of Number 1, 2 and then 10.

Reptile Husbandry Articles by Southern Cross Reptiles <<<<click the link that will take you there

 

[borntobnude]

Is there a "Snakes For Dummies" section here?

Obviously not speaking for every one on here but quite a lot of the knowledgeable people on here started out as dummies that cant speel **** spell . so luckily the most of this forum is just that !! ( IMHO)

 

[Shaggz]

It's hard to say really, with the one that doesn't like to go back into her enclosure she doesn't really like to go to anyone else while she is out and if she does go to someone else she is constantly looking for me and stretching out toward me. I like to think that she actually enjoys my company but then again I am biased as she is one of my babies.

 

[reptalica]

Is there a "Snakes For Dummies" section here?

Obviously not speaking for every one on here but quite a lot of the knowledgeable people on here started out as dummies that cant speel **** spell . so luckily the most of this forum is just that !! ( IMHO)

I was one of those dummies all those posts and years ago and I still am.

All that has improved is my post count.

 

[tuppyandjess]

I think they learn to tolerate it, some tolerate it better than others, but just to watch them is fascinating, if I couldn't handle my MD, I'd still have him, he's given me hours of enjoyment, just being a snake.

I'm always mindful that a lot of handling will stress out a snake, but I take him outside probably twice a week and let him have a wander around the yard, climb a tree (well, a small tree) get in amongst the plants....I get more from just letting him be a snake if you know what I mean. He isnt one to just sit there on you, he's always wanting to be on the go, and Im fine with that.

If you are looking for some basic stuff, you can't go past the Doc Roc articles on reptile husbandry, have a read of Number 1, 2 and then 10.

Reptile Husbandry Articles by Southern Cross Reptiles <<<<click the link that will take you there

Fantastic! This is exactly what I needed! Thank you so much for the link

 

[tuppyandjess]

Is there a "Snakes For Dummies" section here?

Obviously not speaking for every one on here but quite a lot of the knowledgeable people on here started out as dummies that cant speel **** spell . so luckily the most of this forum is just that !! ( IMHO)

My spelling is appalling so I should fit right in
On the other hand - snake handling in the nude sounds like a little more fun than I ever want to have! :shock:

 

[Snapped]

You're welcome, I got so much info from those articles, I printed them out and refer back to them when I'm stuck, or I come in here and read, read, read and pester everyone with questions. I'm still a noob.

 

[tuppyandjess]

You're welcome, I got so much info from those articles, I printed them out and refer back to them when I'm stuck, or I come in here and read, read, read and pester everyone with questions. I'm still a noob.

From what I can figure out so far I reckon you could have been doing this for years & still be a noob. There's a whole other WORLD out there I had no idea about. In a week I've gone from "No I most certainly don't want a snake thank you very much", through the white jungle jaguars, briefly checked out ball pythons & am now reading about yellow annies & burms. Doubtless you'll see me on youtube next week being eaten - if I don't get kicked off here for being off topic first

 

[$NaKe PiMp]

Why is it that in millions of years of evolution you have species that evolved completely independently , and then all of a sudden some bogans think in the last few years they will suddenly "interbreed " and they are people with the least scientific understanding of anything.

 

[n3xia]

Re: tolerating/enjoying handling
After 5 years of owning a snake I'm pretty sure it's just tolerance. Snakes are pretty smart (or just have good instincts?) but mine certainly don't seem to have any emotional capacity at all. It seems like they just like to stay where they are when they've made themselves comfortable. So usually they try to hold onto stuff in their enclosure so as not to be pulled out of it, and then also take a while to go back into the enclosure once they are comfortable on my arm or whatever. They will stretch out to me if someone else is holding them, but they will stretch out to other people just as much.

 

[tuppyandjess]

Re: tolerating/enjoying handling
After 5 years of owning a snake I'm pretty sure it's just tolerance. Snakes are pretty smart (or just have good instincts?) but mine certainly don't seem to have any emotional capacity at all. It seems like they just like to stay where they are when they've made themselves comfortable. So usually they try to hold onto stuff in their enclosure so as not to be pulled out of it, and then also take a while to go back into the enclosure once they are comfortable on my arm or whatever. They will stretch out to me if someone else is holding them, but they will stretch out to other people just as much.

Yeah - that's pretty much what I get from reading here. So ... the fascination with keeping them involves accepting that the pleasure is one sided? I don't know how I feel about that. If I did accept that as valid, I'd at least want to make sure I provided as wide a range of natural experiences as possible for the snake - well at least as far as its enclosure were concerned. I don't know enough yet about their socialization or entertainment needs to know what they'd enjoy there In all honesty - if I had the money to provide a snake utopia playground for them, I've seen some that are gorgeous enough that sure, I'd have them just for eye candy. I guess it's like beautiful fish - ya can't cuddle 'em but they sure can be breath taking all the same. Thanks for the replies everyone. It's been reassuring to find people on here willing to be frank & who are not into anthropomorphizing some fantasy. Thanks for that guys

 

[tuppyandjess]

Why is it that in millions of years of evolution you have species that evolved completely independently , and then all of a sudden some bogans think in the last few years they will suddenly "interbreed " and they are people with the least scientific understanding of anything.

I'm only guessing here, but I think it's because most people have no experience with snakes. I certainly don't - which is why I came here. (Although I could tell a tiger snake from a baby python - which is what brought me to this forum in the first place )
To quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki:
Species The commonly used names for plant and animal taxa sometimes correspond to species: for example, "lion", "walrus", and "Camphor tree" – each refers to a species. In other cases common names do not: for example, "deer" refers to a family of 34 species, including Eld's Deer, Red Deer and Elk (Wapiti). The last two species were once considered a single species, illustrating how species boundaries may change with increased scientific knowledge.
And further down the same page:Most textbooks follow Ernst Mayr's definition of a species as "groups of actually or potentially interbreeding natural populations, which are reproductively isolated from other such groups".[SUP][9][/SUP]
Various parts of this definition serve to exclude some unusual or artificial matings:

• Those that occur only in captivity (when the animal's normal mating partners may not be available) or as a result of deliberate human action
• Animals that may be physically and physiologically capable of mating but, for various reasons, do not normally do so in the wild

Many peoples experience is limited to observing domestic animals & observing that if it looks like a dog/cat/cow/sheep, it can breed with any other d/c/c/s & produce fertile offspring. I figured that wasn't true with snakes or we wouldn't have identifiable snakes - we'd have a million individually marked snakes! But I wasn't sure if some could possibly interbreed. I have an open mind regarding just about everything that is thought to be written in stone. Everyday science uncovers some other amazing thing we have been indoctrinated we must accept as fact.
Some people have knowledge that allows them to figure out certain things for themselves - that snakes don't routinely interbreed for example. I still value the other knowledge these people may have. They may have spent a lifetime observing phenomena scientist are still telling us doesn't happen The world of nature is an amazing & magical place

 

[Pythoninfinite]

To follow on from SnakePimp's wise comment, species and subspecies fill various ecological niches in the regions in which they live, and other closely related species/subspecies fill other niches elsewhere. Species and subspecies don't all cruise around randomly looking for likely sex partners all over the place, so the chances of random cross-subspecies matings is highly unlikely, except when these creatures are brought together in captive collections and are given the opportunity to interact. For example, the Carpet Pythons along the east coast, if you start from the south, you have Diamonds, then Intergrades (they are NOT hybrids), then Coastal Carpets, which finally give way to Jungles in their various forms. Despite the fact that they are territorial "neighbours", each subspecies (if they are still regarded as subspecies) remains distinctive. Similarly with other species/subspecies, they occupy different niches and rarely, if ever come into contact with each other.

 

[tuppyandjess]

To follow on from SnakePimp's wise comment, species and subspecies fill various ecological niches in the regions in which they live, and other closely related species/subspecies fill other niches elsewhere. Species and subspecies don't all cruise around randomly looking for likely sex partners all over the place, so the chances of random cross-subspecies matings is highly unlikely, except when these creatures are brought together in captive collections and are given the opportunity to interact. For example, the Carpet Pythons along the east coast, if you start from the south, you have Diamonds, then Intergrades (they are NOT hybrids), then Coastal Carpets, which finally give way to Jungles in their various forms. Despite the fact that they are territorial "neighbours", each subspecies (if they are still regarded as subspecies) remains distinctive. Similarly with other species/subspecies, they occupy different niches and rarely, if ever come into contact with each other.

Thanks for that exta info. It explained a few things for me

 

[mcbuggsy]

Ah the old "venomous snakes breeding with Carpets" story. IT CAN'T HAPPEN. and yes it's a roughy...There have been reported deaths from envenomation by them...and they are very common up your way.

 

[PythonLegs]

Ahh,yes, about time the 'poisonous snakes interbreeding with pythons' story got a run. When's the 'pythons laying next to me in bed sizing me up for dinner' one due?

 

[Bluetongue1]

I was thinking this thread was done. I got that wrong.

tuppyandjess,
Dorsal refers to the back surface, ventral to the under surface and lateral the sides.

I would not take anything out of the three snake species all being underneath the one piece of bark. For example, it not unusual to discover both predator and a prey species sheltering under the same object, be a rock, sheets of tin or sheets of bark. You will find they are in separate burrows and likely enter and exit at different times, thereby avoiding interaction.

For someone lie yourself, who is thirsty for knowledge, I think it helps to have an understanding of what a ‘species’ entails. When first introduced it was used to indicate a particular type of living thing. It was self evident that each living thing belonged to its own group and that only that group could produce that type of organism. For example giraffes only come from giraffes and never from elephants or lions or zebra etc.

A species can therefore be defined as a group of organism which normally interbreed under natural conditions to produce viable and fertile offspring.

Hence, if two populations have the capacity to interbreed but do NOT do under natural conditions, then they are separate species.

Taxonomy is the science of putting organisms into groups, from species to genus to family to class to phylum (and lots of intermediate grouping levels in between). For a century plus, taxonomy was based almost exclusively on morphology i.e. what organisms look like. The development of genetics has provided a more accurate tool that can be used to determine if populations are interbreeding in nature or not.

What we now know is that some species vary a lot morphologically (like the artificially developed population of dogs plus the wolf, which make up one species) and other very similar looking groups can be made up of two or more species.

For individual species groups to maintain their genetic integrity in nature, they must not interbreed with other species, closely related or otherwise, under natural conditions. So where two closely related species are sympatric, there will be some mechanism that stops them from interbreeding. Yet the best laid plans of mice and men sometimes go astray and occasionally the mechanism fails. But I emphasise, only occasionally. I have seen it happen locally a number of times with corellas and galahs.

A viable cross is one that survives. A fertile cross is one that is capable of breeding. For example, a horse crossed with a donkey produces a mule. The mule is a strong healthy animal in every respect but it ism incapable of reproducing i.e. it is sterile. There are some fairly rare examples where species from two different genera are mated under artificial conditions and produce viable and fertile offspring. I would reckon you had to seriously question that the two separate genera should not be one. But that is just my opinion.

I’ve said too much and will not confuse you by addressing sub-species, complexes and gene-flow. Hope the helps rather than confuses.

Blue

 

[tuppyandjess]

I was thinking this thread was done. I got that wrong.

tuppyandjess,
Dorsal refers to the back surface, ventral to the under surface and lateral the sides.

I would not take anything out of the three snake species all being underneath the one piece of bark. For example, it not unusual to discover both predator and a prey species sheltering under the same object, be a rock, sheets of tin or sheets of bark. You will find they are in separate burrows and likely enter and exit at different times, thereby avoiding interaction.

For someone lie yourself, who is thirsty for knowledge, I think it helps to have an understanding of what a ‘species’ entails. When first introduced it was used to indicate a particular type of living thing. It was self evident that each living thing belonged to its own group and that only that group could produce that type of organism. For example giraffes only come from giraffes and never from elephants or lions or zebra etc.

A species can therefore be defined as a group of organism which normally interbreed under natural conditions to produce viable and fertile offspring.

Hence, if two populations have the capacity to interbreed but do NOT do under natural conditions, then they are separate species.

Taxonomy is the science of putting organisms into groups, from species to genus to family to class to phylum (and lots of intermediate grouping levels in between). For a century plus, taxonomy was based almost exclusively on morphology i.e. what organisms look like. The development of genetics has provided a more accurate tool that can be used to determine if populations are interbreeding in nature or not.

What we now know is that some species vary a lot morphologically (like the artificially developed population of dogs plus the wolf, which make up one species) and other very similar looking groups can be made up of two or more species.

For individual species groups to maintain their genetic integrity in nature, they must not interbreed with other species, closely related or otherwise, under natural conditions. So where two closely related species are sympatric, there will be some mechanism that stops them from interbreeding. Yet the best laid plans of mice and men sometimes go astray and occasionally the mechanism fails. But I emphasise, only occasionally. I have seen it happen locally a number of times with corellas and galahs.

A viable cross is one that survives. A fertile cross is one that is capable of breeding. For example, a horse crossed with a donkey produces a mule. The mule is a strong healthy animal in every respect but it ism incapable of reproducing i.e. it is sterile. There are some fairly rare examples where species from two different genera are mated under artificial conditions and produce viable and fertile offspring. I would reckon you had to seriously question that the two separate genera should not be one. But that is just my opinion.

I’ve said too much and will not confuse you by addressing sub-species, complexes and gene-flow. Hope the helps rather than confuses.

Blue

Cool Thank you so much for taking the time to explain all that It's nice to know someone out there gives a dam & has taken the time to share their knowledge with someone wet behind the ears. I appreciate it. You can never learn too much
What we now know is that some species vary a lot morphologically (like the artificially developed population of dogs plus the wolf, which make up one species) and other very similar looking groups can be made up of two or more species.
Ah yes ... I've made that mistake myself ... my last 2 romantic interests for instance ...
So where two closely related species are sympatric, there will be some mechanism that stops them from interbreeding.
I think that's why humans invented alcohol .. to override the mechanism ...
I have seen it happen locally a number of times with corellas and galahs.
I reckon my last 2 mistakes were galahs ... maybe I'm a corella?


Sorry couldn't resist ... I'm in a particularly testy mood tonight

 

[tuppyandjess]

Ah the old "venomous snakes breeding with Carpets" story. IT CAN'T HAPPEN. and yes it's a roughy...There have been reported deaths from envenomation by them...and they are very common up your way.

Yes ... my neighbours foxie ... who died 5 minutes after being bitten I'm not much into people ... honestly, we're in plague proportions ... but the foxie was kinda cute
And yes - since I started discussing my tiger, I've heard more neighbours than I wanted to hear saying there's a LOT of them around at the moment. But honestly, if you don't think about them, you don't see them. Worrying draws them to you I reckon

And the reason I haven't been on here for a few days????
That would be because I've used up all my internet allowance for the month.
How did I do that?
Looking at videos/pictures of ... wait for it ... snakes. So now you may all roll around on the floor laughing & say "I told you so."

 

[mcbuggsy]

Told you so.ha ha ha..... You are going to get the bug.I can see it happening already.....Come to the dark side.....you know you want to.....