Show off your Co-dominant morphs

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

Siblings should just not be sold at all, RPMs should be microchipped. In a perfect world, I guess. We will be chipping our animals.

 

[kenneally1]

For Southside Morelia


Here's "Spyro" he's 4 years old. He's a 75% reduced IJ x Jag

 

[kenneally1]

They should be sold as coastals if you have bred a RPM coastal to a normal coastal. 50% will be RPM coastals and the other 50% will be normal coastals. They dont carry any hidden gene so they should be sold as coastals. That wont be the problem IMO. The harder part will be selling the 50% non RPM hatchies if you mate a Coastal RPM to a Jungle.

These are things that need to be clearly told when selling. I think some people will try and palm off these hybrid standards as pure.

That depends if you believe that Jags are pure coastal's.

 

[NickM]

Australian keepers will now have to deal with all the same problems we have in the US and Europe. I understand there is tremendous desire/demand for morphs , but there is a serious negative side to it as well.

The problem is that you will see huge demand for Jungle/jags, but nearly zero demand for the mutt siblings that hatch alongside with them. Your herp market will never bee the same.

Regardless of anyones views on the subject, the reality is that anyone in Oz who wants to purchase a pure carpet will have to much more careful in the future.

The issue of jags being pure coastals will be less important over time. The mutation started out in pure coastals, but very quickly became questionable. So its possible to have a pure coastal jag. But just because some pure coastal jags certainly do exist, does not mean that the founder stock of the RPM lineage was pure, which I would have no way of knowing, it is certainly possible they are pure coastals, so it would be unwise to assume they are not.

But what will it matter in 5 years anyway, when the focus is on hybridizing them anyway?

Nick

 

[PimmsPythons]

Australian keepers will now have to deal with all the same problems we have in the US and Europe. I understand there is tremendous desire/demand for morphs , but there is a serious negative side to it as well.

The problem is that you will see huge demand for Jungle/jags, but nearly zero demand for the mutt siblings that hatch alongside with them. Your herp market will never bee the same.

Regardless of anyones views on the subject, the reality is that anyone in Oz who wants to purchase a pure carpet will have to much more careful in the future.

The issue of jags being pure coastals will be less important over time. The mutation started out in pure coastals, but very quickly became questionable. So its possible to have a pure coastal jag. But just because some pure coastal jags certainly do exist, does not mean that the founder stock of the RPM lineage was pure, which I would have no way of knowing, it is certainly possible they are pure coastals, so it would be unwise to assume they are not.

But what will it matter in 5 years anyway, when the focus is on hybridizing them anyway?

Nick

spot on Nick

 

[Camo]

That depends if you believe that Jags are pure coastal's.

So we are told :lol:

 

[Southside Morelia]

For Southside Morelia

Here's "Spyro" he's 4 years old. He's a 75% reduced IJ x Jag

Still HOT after 4 years!!!
Thanks for the pics.
As much as I LOVE the jags and stuff they are absolutely awesome and hope to get a few one day, I do have reservations....As Barra has said not quoted but along these lines.."he doesn't think like other herpers, in his purchase of his stock".. Which I do concur with this way of thinking and I did sell all my old "classic" looking animals, to now only own different looking and more sought after animals as my own personal preference. I have however, often felt, it it will be frustrating in future knowing because I do own pure animals only ATM, one day some will think they are not because they are similar to RPM's etc...and the debate will start to try and justify your own collections origin.

 

[impulse reptiles]

Australian keepers will now have to deal with all the same problems we have in the US and Europe. I understand there is tremendous desire/demand for morphs , but there is a serious negative side to it as well.

The problem is that you will see huge demand for Jungle/jags, but nearly zero demand for the mutt siblings that hatch alongside with them. Your herp market will never bee the same.

Regardless of anyones views on the subject, the reality is that anyone in Oz who wants to purchase a pure carpet will have to much more careful in the future.

The issue of jags being pure coastals will be less important over time. The mutation started out in pure coastals, but very quickly became questionable. So its possible to have a pure coastal jag. But just because some pure coastal jags certainly do exist, does not mean that the founder stock of the RPM lineage was pure, which I would have no way of knowing, it is certainly possible they are pure coastals, so it would be unwise to assume they are not.

But what will it matter in 5 years anyway, when the focus is on hybridizing them anyway?

Nick

No slimbo that was not spot on.

Australia and USA contain Different people Nick , have you ever lived in
Australia?

USA did not know any better ,originally they got ther carpets imported as 'Carpets' not separate individual carpet sub species, this is the reason why all Americas carpets are Crosses.

Australia on the other hand know what they have ,Australia have
people called purists that will only breed pure animals ,so the rest of the Herpers can breed what ever they like but there will always be 'pure' animals that are separate and will always remain separate and pure.

There WILL be demand for the mutt siblings....There are 21 million people in Australia with more to come,when some of these more colorful morphs start getting interesting (and better then the rest of the worlds)
the hobby will grow in Australia and it will be a different story, unfortunately i think most of the mutt siblings will have the same fate as the infamous Lucy.

I'm sorry but i completely disagree with your posts regarding Rpms, Australia and USA are different for many reasons, some of these reasons are why i will always live in Australia


Cheers!

 

[PimmsPythons]

most that went over there ,back before the subspecies days and back when it was legal, were from known localities.there is still many american and european zoos that import pure lines. there are plenty of pure carpets and pure carpet breeders in europe and america, they aren't all crosses.fairly recently a zoo in America just imported pure aussie scrubbys so maybe they will hit the market in the future as well over there.
Nick has already seen what has happened first hand since the Jags hit the big scene while we have been watching and reading via the internet ,so what he is saying will probably be correct .
we have to also remember all these new kids that are are just getting into the reptile game wont want your average coastal.he will want that you beaut albinojagrpmgranitepython.
so in 10 years or so when the morphs have been done to death,the cycle will come back around to pure pythons again as is happening overseas now.no point whinging and complaining,there is room for the purists and the morph breeders.
aussie jag breeders will still be able to move on their jag sibs cheaply if they wish ,but buyers will have to understand that all jag sibs will all have a question mark over their head on what exact subspecies is in them. i have a feeling some breeders who wont wish to put time into them will put them straight into the freezer.
cheers
simon

 

[NickM]

No slimbo that was not spot on.

Australia and USA contain Different people Nick , have you ever lived in
Australia?

USA did not know any better ,originally they got ther carpets imported as 'Carpets' not separate individual carpet sub species, this is the reason why all Americas carpets are Crosses.

Australia on the other hand know what they have ,Australia have
people called purists that will only breed pure animals ,so the rest of the Herpers can breed what ever they like but there will always be 'pure' animals that are separate and will always remain separate and pure.

There WILL be demand for the mutt siblings....There are 21 million people in Australia with more to come,when some of these more colorful morphs start getting interesting (and better then the rest of the worlds)
the hobby will grow in Australia and it will be a different story, unfortunately i think most of the mutt siblings will have the same fate as the infamous Lucy.

I'm sorry but i completely disagree with your posts regarding Rpms, Australia and USA are different for many reasons, some of these reasons are why i will always live in Australia


Cheers!

Most what you just said is simply not true. there are plenty of pure lines of carpets here, and if you really search you can still find them, I have more than I know what to do with.

Second, Australia is NOT that different than the USA. I have been Australia, and I fell in love with the place. But I was surprised at how similar Australia was to the USA culturally. It would be a topic for another thread, but our two countries have VERY similar histories in most regards and the result is a strong cultural similarity today.

As such you will experience the same results that we did with regards to Jags, and your hobby will never be the same. You may feel that that constitutes "progress" and you have every right to your opinion, others will disagree.

The problems with making countless jag hybrids is twofold.

1: nobody wants the normal intergrades from the clutch, your way off if you think they will. Why would someone want an animal thats 50% jungle, if they can just get a more colorfull 100% jungle??? they will have to be sold VERY cheap in order to sell them at all. Most will end up as generic "carpets" at pet shops and ultimatley become "unknown"

2: after the initial race to make things like jungle jags, the race becomes about making higher% jungle jags, the eventual end product is very nice looking mutt jags, but also making mutt normals that look EXACTLY like pure jungles. Since few are interested in the intergrades the reality is that over time, many of these will simply "become" pure jungles.

This has been happening here for years and it will happen in Oz as well.

If you think this is an acceptable price to pay , in order to have yellow RPMs, than again you are entitled to your opinion.

Australians have wanted these for a very long time, and you guys down there are dont need anyone telling you want to do with your own herp scene. I am however pointing out the innevitable consequences of whats happening.


It would be nice to pretend that there are no negative consequences for anyone from such breedings , but there most certainly will be. Weather you think the benefits of crossing them are worth it is a descision for Australians to make.

 

[NickM]

And why do you think that there will be a demand for the mutt normals, because Australia has 21 million people? The USA has over 300 million people and the largest herp market int he world, and nobody really wants them.

Nick

 

[Retic]

I'm sorry but I really can't believe that anyone really believes that America, Europe or wherever don't have known pure lines, it's absurd. How many carpets have arrived overseas without passports ? My guess would be 1000's over the years, most of these animals would have arrived with locality details attached.
Good or bad there is little doubt the hobby here is going the exact same way as every other country in the world.
It's also worth noting that most of the best Morelia morphs are not originating in America but in Europe where there are also many pure lines.

 

[NickM]

I dont want to beat-up on the hybridizers, its strange but most of my best friends in herpetoculture are serious hybridizers.

The reality is that after years of being a bit "behind" in captive breeding, Australia's herp scene is really booming. I follow this forum because its exiting to see all the fantastic stock being produced in Oz now.

But of course the rapid expansion of the hobby in Australia, innevitably leads to these sort of things.

And once the taboo against hybrids is lifted it will increase further. Over here people are breeding anything and everything together , just to see if its possible, or for the noteriety they think they will gain.

Over here carpet pythons have been hybridized with 10 different FULL species, not to mention all the intergrades with sub-species. In fact there are only 3 members of the Genus Morelia that have NOT been hybridized with carpets here: carinata and oenpellensis, because nobody really has them, and Morelia tracyea, because nobody can get them to breed at all.

But I am quite confident now that Carinata are being sold here, that someone will make carinata hybrid jags in the next 2 years!

This will no doubt excite some people, and horrify others, but its the natural progression of these things.

Just look at the change in attitude toward hybrids on this forum in the last year. It seems like just a very short time ago , anyone talking about hybrids was quickly condemned by the majority. Today the attitude has changed tremendously, and those of us not in favor of hybrids are often the ones getting lectured. And all this just because Jags hit the Australian reptile market.

Nick

 

[Retic]

Apparently carinata have been hybridised with GTP's more than once here, no-one seems to have photo's but too many people seem to know about them for it just to be rumour.

 

[BARRAMUNDI]

This thread is going in a positive drection.... alot better than I ever expected to be honest.

A while back, some clown tried to sell me a line of utter bullcrap about the "rpms" via pm, I couldnt believe the stupidity of it, and saw it as the clouds on the horizon of a storm brewing, and will never respect the morals and ethics of this mungbean, nor them as a person.

Fortunately, a few of you fellas on the front line, are bringing up the real issues, rather than sweeping them beneath the rug... a level of honesty and integrity that should be commended. If somehow, these animals can carve their own niche without infiltrating the landscape of carpets on a whole, it would be a very impressive feat. Though I am the first to admit, that the way these early stages are unravelling, you guys are on the right track. Hopefully, this kind of start trickles through the community, and has a flowing effect through all the hands that jags pass through.

Also, just wondering, heard Coastal Jags brought up, now whats the deal with coastal jag sibs. Do you think that the sibs are just standard coastal carpets seeing as overseas they are considered to have no magical properties, or should be sold with the tag "coastal jag sibling". No loaded question, just in my opinion, Jan Eric has been clear as mud about the origins, and has seemed to shoot through with the cash, rather than deliver his promised tell all article. So as a purist I am sceptical, and as such would implicate on my future purchases of coastal carpets if I was to know that there was a Jag sib somewhere back in the line.

Cheers Simon.........as said we are definately trying set things straight......

 

[kupper]

it just shows the calibre of a person when they can be honest with not only others but themselves

 

[impulse reptiles]

No Nick , how do you know the blood lines are pure did you get them out of the bush? did you personally track the animals on there way over here? im aware of the gosford zoo bloodlines ect ect but how can you really know there pure? you ''simply'' dont.


why are you posting the same information over and over again? we know thats mutt sibs will be produced ,flood the market ect ect ect , we know :?

 

[NickM]

No Nick , how do you know the blood lines are pure did you get them out of the bush? did you personally track the animals on there way over here? im aware of the gosford zoo bloodlines ect ect but how can you really know there pure? you ''simply'' dont

All anyone is saying is take responsibility for your actions. If you truly believe that making tons of hybrid carpets is worth the inevitable damage it will do to your captive gene pool , than just say that.

What angers purists the most, is really the attempt to pretend that it will not cause any problems. You then follow that up with an attempt to cast doubt on the validity of "pure stock". This is also an old tactic, used at length here to justify the practice.

The last argument that the pro-hybrid breeders here use is also to claim that "there will always be purist breeders" this is a bit of a slap in the face to those of us on the other side as well. Its as if your saying that what you do wont matter because other people will provide some sort of safety-net , thus you escape any personal responsibility.

I have been breeding carpets longer than some members of this forum have been alive, so please do not speak to me as if I am nome sort of newbie. I have managed to learn a few things in all these years and I have the benefit of watching this entire process play out here and in Europe over the last 15 years.

Nick

 

[NickM]

This is an inescapable extension of the "morph" market. The issue really is not even about carpets, as this same thing has happened with other species here as well. Boa constrictors are just as mixed up now as carpets here. Like carpets, boa constrictors come in a variety of localities and sub-species, and just like with carpets, the morphs have been crossed into every sub-species. In this case it had nothing to do with any uncertainty of the animals origins , as you eluded to.

People begin to look at different sub-species as if they were morphs , instead of different animals. this is also happening with Blood pythons, Sand boas, and rainbow boas. Perhaps its just human nature.


I have read hundreds of posts on this forum over the years that indicated a strong desire on the part of some to have an Australian herp scene that was more similar to that of the US and Europe. Well that time has come.

Your hobby in Oz is at a huge turning point now, and for better or worse it will never be the same.

You have to take the bad with the good. You will certainly see some crazy looking carpets produced, but you will also produce a large number of by-product animals along the way, which will enter your hobby , often mis-labeled.


I am not Australian, so I have no stake in the outcome, but the outcome is already known.

 

[BARRAMUNDI]

Nick,
thanks for your point of view, its certainly a valid one at that....However, as some members have frustratingly said, the results will not be the same as the US. Yes our hobby is never going to be the same, but we certainly now know what not to do.

When all this first came out, I and a few others copped a flaming with more than 95% of comments to threads being negative, we were also told we will never be responsible and will never develop an open and honest hybrid culture.

To date, we have swung the masses 180 degrees to 95% positive comments and a very open and honest culture, with people openly advertising hybrids for what they are.......hybrids. Rather than sweeping them under the rug and passing them off.........

Sure there are going to be cowboys passing off hybrids for locale and line bred carpets, the truth is that this was and is already happening before JAGS ever popped up. As stated above, the rise of RPM/JAGS and our efforts to encourage keepers to openly and honestly label the hybrids correctly is a huge positive step forward and one for the better.

Where we need to go from here is to maintain the open and honest culture, but also encourage keepers to only produce hybrids if it is for a desired outcome that has a market.

IMO crossing a bredli with a Diamond is not a desired outcome, all it produces is a $25 snake that has no genetic value. On the other hand crossing a 75% Jungle RPM/JAG with an ALBINO Darwin does, and so does the mutt siblings as they can be used for future designer snake projects to produce % cross ALBINOS, % cross ALBINO RPM/JAGS and RPM/JAGS........

I understand that not all people will attempt RPM/JAGS cross's with the sibs in the majority of cases containing genetic value, its these no value sibs that we need to be very carefull with. But in my experience with RPM/JAGS the sibs dont look like pure lines and any attempt to pass them off as something else is and will be pretty hard.

I am sure the odd newbie AND experienced keeper may get ripped off with one of these sibs, but as said this is nothing new to our hobby and it certainly isnt going to wreck our herp scene...........As said word travells fast and the weeds will be weeded out very quickly.....