Sick turtles?

[saeag]

I brought my dry docked turtles back from vet yesterday Andy’s usual put them In Bath together tonight for feed and poo. Neither want to eat. They are lifting a led in the air and sticking their heads under the leg. Looks like they might be biting themselves. They are also gaping their mouths open under the water. They are next to each other but do not seem to be doing it to each other. This is sudden behaviour change since vet. I have a video if that helps. They also do the back leg Breast stroke like trying to poo and are scratching face with front legs. Both are dry docked due to face injuries. One chipped its beak and the other is rescue. They really do seem itchy but can’t be water as dry docked and I clean bath before adding turtles - no routine change. Help please

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Turtles biting their feet is a sign their skin is burning due to high ammonia and or nitrite levels in the water. It's like being put into battery acid. You need to rectify this by detoxifying the water with Seachem Prime and providing adequate biological filtration. How long have they been getting dry-docked for at a time?? The gaping behaviour suggests they are severely dehydrated due to being kept out of water far too long, turtles are truly aquatic, not terrestrial like tortoises. Turtles cannot be kept in a bathtub, it is cruel and a completely inadequate situation. These 2 turtles need to be separated and kept separate, 2 turtles should never be kept together.

 

[saeag]

One has been dry docked for 2 mths and the other for a month. Vets instructions. 100% dry dock, max 1hr shallow swim, recessed water that they ca put head but not body in. They were on Antibiotic injections every three days until yesterday. Got the all clear yesterday to put them in water (only 2 inches) 12 hours a day but up till now they have have been dry docked 23 hrs a day. Docked with water container recessed into bottom of enclosures so they can drink. They are only in bath to poo and feed for an hour a day so can't be water. They are in separate enclosures and only in bath together. There have never been any issues until today. They swim around bath inhaling their food, they, poo and then back in enclosures. They did go to vet in same box and I had to leave them there due to Covid, so not sure what examination was like. I am wondering if the vet exam hurt their mouths as they both have mouth issues and/or the trauma of the vet together has made them dislike each other? As a specialist reptile vet has just seen them, and taken them off antibiotics, I assume they don't have a skin condition as surely this would have been picked up? Could the self biting, leg lifting be behavioral. I will swim them seperatly tomorrow and see if they do this, if left on their own. I guess it is back to the vet for us if the behavior continues when they are on their own.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Why are they being dry docked for 23 hours a day? How big are the turtles (SCL) ?

 

[saeag]

Turtle 1 - 13cm - turtle escaped and got lost a year ago. Found during floods a few months ago. No food or water for the year I believe. Mouth rot, thin and generally very poor condition. Was put on antibiotic injections every 3 days for 2 mths. It now appears fine but vet said it's mouth is still very unstable so needs to remain in hypercare for quite a few more months
Turtle 2 -17cm - has chipped beak and has problem making seal. Vet said this one has mouth rot too and this is why beak chipped and they put it on antibiotics too. I am not convinced, as it has now been taken off the antibiotics after the first month. I think it chipped it's beak falling off a rock when the pond spring a leak and water level dropped suddenly. In any case, it has chipped it's beak, and it does have problems making a seal, so until it grows back it will need easy access to shallow water.
There are three other turtles who the vet gave a clean bill of health to.

Don't know why instructed to fully dry dock. I just followed instruction's as I felt so bad that they were sick.
[doublepost=1586434650,1586434531][/doublepost]Note - healthy turtles live in two ponds in the garden but transferring them to 6 ft aquarium I am cycling for winter - again vet's instruction

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Ok those 2 turtles are way too small to be dry docked for 23 hours/day, if you keep that up, they're going to die... you're causing them copious amounts of stress which is adding to their health issues and hindering their recovery. The 13cm one should be dry docked for no more than 1 hour and the 17cm one 2 hours max. The turtles need to be kept and cared for in a fully functioning aquarium with adequate filtration and access to easily edible food such as aquatic plant material like elodea, vallisneria and watercress. A floating type dock should be provided beneath a heat/10% uvb basking light providing a hot spot of 36°C so the turtles can haul out whenever they want to. The aquarium should have a 3cm deep substrate of calgrit mixed with river sand and contain turtle safe decor like driftwood, (no rocks). The water chemistry should be as follows : -
pH - 7.4 to 7.8
KH - 80ppm
GH - 180ppm to 200ppm
Salinity should be maintained at 0.4% to 0.5%
Water temperature - 26°C (maintained with a thermostatically controlled aquarium heater).
Water depth - 50cm - 60cm.

 

[saeag]

They usually live in a pond. I am cycling a 6 ft aquarium at the moment, for winter but will be another 2 weeks I guess before animal ready. There is a terrarium on top for basking. I have some smaller terrariums and water heaters I can use in mean time and just change the water out daily. At least they can submerge. My immediate concern is the foot biting and gasping and loss of interest in food. It impacts both. Could it just be mouth pain if vet was poking in their mouths? Could it be constipation? I am watching one now and it is floating and doing breast stroke with its back legs like it sometimes does before a poo. If it was respiratory, and advanced surly the vet would have picked it up and not taken it off it’s antibiotics? The other turtle vomited this morning. It was food I fed it at least 2 days ago. I want to stress that both turtles were behaving normally up to vet visit. While the dry dock may not have been doing them any favours from the sounds of it, they had been docked for 1-2 months with zero symptoms. What can cause such sudden onset in two at the same time? I will see if vet can see them tomorrow but I am worried about stressing them even more
[doublepost=1586504975,1586504848][/doublepost]Turtle just sunk as I was typing. Was t looking so can’t see if it was wind- one less concern

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

The floating is from dehydration. They will hydrate and submerge as normal. There's absolutely no need to have dry docked those turtles all day every day for 2 months especially prior to winter. I'd personally be setting them up in an aquarium and leaving them to be turtles and forgetting about any more vet visits. I've never taken a turtle to the vet for anything in my life.

 

[saeag]

Great- thanks. I’ll stick them in a small aquarium tomorrow. I can change water daily until the big one cycles. I’ll stick the aquarium in a vivarium that has the uvb/ basking and thermostat ( going to canablise for the 6 ft set up once it has cycled). Not perfect but better than current set up for a week or two.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

No need to do that, put them straight into the big aquarium and quit handling them every day. You're just stressing them out and hindering their recovery. Get Seachem Prime and Stability and use them both in the big aquarium as per the directions and the tank will safely cycle whilst the turtles are occupying it.

 

[saeag]

Turtles back in water, eating and behaving normally again thank goodness. Aquarium Primed and Seachemed up.

I have to buy new UVBs for winter and want to get it right as it will be an expensive error to fix and I am officially cleaned out of cash.

I have a 4 ft aquarium hood and was going to buy a Arcadia T5 12% UVB 54w Reptile Light

a) Is this suitable?
b) Does this sort of tube work with normal aquarium hood light fitting?
c) How far away from surface of basking area should a light like this be?

Thanks for all your advice so far. Hopefully this is the end of my questions and the start of a smooth and healthy winter.
[doublepost=1587040858,1587036705][/doublepost]Ok - Forget that. Just checked and fitting is T8 so will get
Reptile One Light Tube UVB10
a) Is this suitable?
b) How far away from surface of basking area should a light like this be?

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

If you're going to use a fluoro tube it needs to be less than 15cm from the basking area/surface of the water.


My preferred method is to use a decent mercury vapour lamp.