URGENT colubrid help

[leeroy1983]

I need a bit of help over the last week i have lost a bts and a keelback and my other keelback is not doing so well. i recently cleaned out the their enclosures and put in some new Kritter crumble then shortly after i found i mites on my snakes. i then removed all my snakes and placed them in tubs with heat mats and i completely cleaned out the enclosures and sprayed them with MAC mite insecticide and left the enclosure for 24hrs closed and a further 24hrs open to air out then put in paper towel and place my snakes back in the enclosure. Withing 24hrs i lost one BTS and a juvenile keelback so once again i pulled out my snakes again and into the tubs they went however a further 24 hrs late my older keelback is not doing so well. He has gone off his food and has gone placid which is unusual for him and i can turn him onto his back which is never a good sign. So what i want to know is how can i help my keelback? What is the likely cause for this? Is something it likely to spread to my pythons who were also treated for the same mites? And how can i best protect my remaining tree snakes from this happening to them?
ThanksU

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also might be worth mentioning my remaining keeback had a perfect shed 3 days ago. Now after checking on him again i'll be surprised if he is still alive in the morning

 

[buffcoat]

Re: coloubrid help

I don't know anything about that mite treatment you are using. I do know that with Prevent a Mite you DO NOT spray your snake directly.

Now using a lice treatment, such as Nix, mixed with a gallon of distilled water, it is OK to spray directly on your reptile.

Check your temperatures. Check them again. Hope for the best.

I'm sorry about your losses. Just do what you can and everything will be fine.

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[Renagade]

did you spray the snakes? did you flush the enclosure after fumigating? I have never sprayed my herps directly or introduced them to a heavily insecticided area. Many reps will consume moisture off themselves or their environment.
How is it now?

 

[leeroy1983]

Temps are good. I didn't spray the snakes directly. I followed the instructions to the letter. The only difference where the instructions said i could put the snake back straight away, I left the enclosure for 48hrs. Also all water bowels were removed while i was doing this. I treated my python enclosures in the same way and all of them are fine. Is there any chance that i may of introduced something with the kritter crumble? Just checked on my keelback now and he is still alive but still behaving odd.

 

[JasonL]

Sounds like poisoning to me..

 

[cathy1986]

Re: coloubrid help

Vets???

Cathy

 

[sharky]

Sounds like a trip to the herp vet may be needed????

 

[buffcoat]

Re: coloubrid help

Is your snake stargazing?

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[leeroy1983]

I just got home from work. My keelback seems to be doing better. Stargazing would be a good way of describing what it was doing last night. Ive tried a few local vets for some of my snakes before but most wouldnt know the head from the tail, there is a couple decent ones i know of but none close to where i live. Poisoning is something i have considered but when the first one died it happened before i treated any of them soi chaulked it up to a existing health condition from when i bought it, although that one was smashing its food right up till it died, in fact so was the second one to go. Also like a said i treated my pythons in the same way and all of them are fine. I think if this keelback doesn't make it I'm going to fork out for the autopsy.

 

[Venomous_RBB]

I am so sorry to hear that
I hope he gets better, poor thing. Good Luck.
Let us know how he goes

 

[buffcoat]

Re: coloubrid help

If its stargazing get it to a vet immediately and quarantine any other snakes asap. It may be poisoned or a neurological infection. Are there any lumps or "tumor" looking places on it?

I don't want to scare ya but if its gazing it needs attention like, yesterday.

Hope all goes well. Keep us informed please

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[Venomous_RBB]

Agreed with buffcoat, how is the keelback doing?

 

[JasonL]

What are you feeding the KBs?

 

[eipper]

I am thinking a Thiamine issue could be a cause. I don't remove water bowls or the snakes when I have mite sprayed in the past.

 

[Bluetongue1]

Firstly, your Kritter Krumble has nothing to do with your problems. It has been used hundreds of times by other keepers without issue. Secondly, what type of mite are we talking about? Reptile mite (Ophionyssus natricis) – the dark little dots that get underneath the scales, particularly the ventrals around the anterior end? If that is the case, then you have either introduced a new snake to your collection without quarantining it. Alternatively, you or someone else has been handling an infected snake and then, without having changed clothing and showered, your snakes have been handled.

Apart from the irritation that reptile mite cause and the amount of blood they can draw off reptiles in severe infestations, they are also known to be carriers (vectors) of a number of snake diseases. So it is quite possible that a disease has been introduced into your collection. It may have only really established in the colubrids to date but I would be keeping a careful eye on all specimens which showed signs of mite.

I know nothing about MAC mite spray. There are other tried and trusted chemicals that I personally would use ahead of anything else. That is a personal preference only as I cannot see a mite product designed for reptiles turning out to be hazardous to reptiles. Irrespective, there is some excellent advice on mite control available on older threads here – you will recognise the well established names of those involved. Well worth a look.

What I definitely would check is that you used it at the recommended strength. If you have not done this then your problems may well be due to toxicity levels of the MAC chemical. Otherwise it is down to two possibilities as I see it. Introduction of a disease via the reptile mite. Or, debilitation of individual specimens as a result of prolonged severe mite infection that have then succumbed to what would normally be a non-toxic level of the miticide.

Whatever, you have my sympathy. It is pretty devastating to see any captive die, let alone a long term captive.

Blue

 

[JasonL]

I was thinking that too Scott..

 

[loungelizard]

I use MAC on my reptiles with no issues. I remove the water bowls and spray into enclosure for only a second or two, with the reptile in there . Never had a problem .
Im not an expert but aren't Keelbacks fresh water snakes ? Would Kriter crumble be too dry ?

 

[leeroy1983]

Thanks for all the advice I really appreciate it. I just checked my keelback and he seems to be doing a lot better but im still keeping a close eye on him. I just gave him a fish which he smashed which i take to be a good sign. So Bluetongue1 it is possible that the mites been carrying some disease? I did manage to get on top of the mite infestation before it got serious.
Ive been thinking as to another source for the mites, is it possible that a recently acquired bird could of had the mites then passed them to my cats which then brought them into my reptile room?

Just to answer a few questions. No lumps or tumors noticeable. The keelback that dies was fed on neons, the one that still alive was fed on guppies, platys, swordtails and goldfish and the BTS was difficult feeder who would only eat pinkie and velvet mice. I don't think that thiamine was the issue as the BTS never touched fish and the keelback that died was a yearling. No new snakes added to collection since Feb, nobody handling my snakes apart from myself. I found out about the MAC spray from another thread on this site.

Also just a side note, i dont believe this is the issue here but i have lost two different hatchies in the past to eating kritter krumble and it blocking them up and have known others who have had the same thing happen. As a result i don't use it for hatchies anymore. Not related to this issue but just putting it out there anyway.

Thanks heaps again

 

[Bluetongue1]

My apologies. I meant that you could rule out the kritter crumbles as the source of your mite infection. Reptile mite are host specific and do not feed on birds or cats. They effectively are transfered directly from snake to snake but can hitch a ride on a snake handler in the process. All you need is one pregnant female to be carried into the snake room and it can find its own way into an enclosure. Did anybody give you anything at all that you have put into an enclosure or the room? They had to come from somewhere with snakes and/or lizards.

Glad to hear the Keelback seems to be coming good.

Blue

 

[benjamind2010]

Also just a side note, i dont believe this is the issue here but i have lost two different hatchies in the past to eating kritter krumble and it blocking them up and have known others who have had the same thing happen. As a result i don't use it for hatchies anymore. Not related to this issue but just putting it out there anyway.

One reason why I suggest everyone use newspaper or butcher's paper. Cheap and very effective substrate, and doesn't seem to cause any issues. The only question I would have would be what inks they use on particular newspapers and whether or not those inks are toxic, but I've been using newspaper for over a year and have never had a problem.