Wild Caught debate

[ravensgait]

Well this is a discussion that I've not seen very often..

I have a lot of experience with WC animals Emeralds both Northerns and Basin. Amazon tree boas, Solomon Island three and ground boas, Rainbow Boas, Chondro's of many localities, IJ Carpet pythons, Boa Constrictors, Morelia Nauta, Morelia Clastolepis, Papuan pythons and I'm sure I have omitted a few others here. I'll also note that many of these animals have taken a very long trip to reach us over here and you folks don't have that problem with WC animals there. Some of the animals I've worked with are a bit touchy even as CBB's. Also almost every WC animal I've ever dealt with had parasites and or diseases to one extent or another, some of a type or severity that the animal had to be destroyed.

As in everything there are exceptions and I hate to say it like this but you can't have an informed opinion on the subject unless you have dealt with a number of both WC and CB animals of different species.

I'll pick one that you do have there that being Chondro's an animal that was very difficult to get established and took a long time to figure out how to get consistent results breeding. We can get Wild caught, Farm bred (for those that don't know these are captive bred babies from farms in Indo.) and Captive born and bred animals here in the US. You can pick any person with experience with these three CBB, FB, and WC and they will tell you that when looking at the over all success of the animal, IE it is healthy, reproduces readily and lives for an extended period of time and they will tell you that by far CBB animals are more successful. Captive breeding has taken this animal from being an animal that most only use to dream of having to an animal that with some experience most anyone can keep, even novices that do their home work have had success with CBB animals. Like I said above there are exceptions but as a rule CBB animals are healthier easier to keep and live longer than WC animals do.

I agree that bringing WC animals in adds to and enhances what we have already and I feel that as long as it doesn't adversely affect the long term survival of the species it should be allowed to continue. Wild Caught animals are as has been said very important because without them there would be no Captive bred animals and they will continue to help add to CBB lines as long as we are able to collect them.. Randy

 

[niggz]

Please correct me if i'm wrong but from what I have read in various magazine articles and a visit to the Aussie Reptile Park I understand that the current captive population of Rough Scaled Pythons was established from just five wild caught animals. A breeding program was started and now several people breed RSP's and many people now own RSP's.
In my opinion this is a good example of how wild caught animals should be used to establish captive bred populations and then left alone. Obviously RSP's still command a hefty price at the moment, but I'm sure most other species were expensive when they were first established.

 

[TrueBlue]

ravensgait,-- i agree with you to a point, except we are talking about cleaned out, established w/c animals, all of which are feeding and doing well for a lengthy period of time in captivity before they are sold.
Not straight from the bush, untreated animals, that can be housed with a large number of other animals, of not always the same species, before being exported over seas to you guys. Having to deal with alot of those sort of animals, espcially certain species like chondros, would be a nightmare i agree.
Dave is a very honest person, ( thats about the only nice thing i can think of to say about him thou, lol), and he makes sure all the animals hes sells to people are doing well and have been cleaned out, thats just what he does. Im sure that everyone is happy with what they have recieved from him to date.
The other problem we have here at the moment is IBD and paramixo. Its every where and keeps getting spread further a field because alot of people that are getting it keep sweeping it under the carpet.
An other good point to make about animals comming out of wa is that most are desert species, which habour far less parasites than animals from tropical areas.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Randy
I can only speak about the Australian species that I have kept, bred and dealt with, and it has been for me and many others a very happy and often a very productive experience.
I have no doubt that with many of the exotic species you guys get to see imported in your country, it is a different scenario not to mention the diseases this lucky country has seldom (at least up until recently ), ever had to face.
Another factor in the past was where many of your exotics were sourced from. I know for a fact that many of those reptiles used to go through many hands of inexperienced collectors and animal welfare was not a huge concern and nor did they know how to treat them correctly. A typical example is from a friend of mine supervising an illegal shipment of green pythons that had just arrived into Singapore without his knowledge to a well known reptile park where he worked and from well known international smugglers. There was nearly 50 green python including a few adults crammed into a briefcase.
The legalized trade here in W.A has licence protocol in place regarding welfare to adhere to, hence a better quality reptile ending up into the hands of the keeper.
I myself cannot claim to know how good or bad captive bred verses wild caught in your country is as I simply don’t know and therefore believe what you say. I am sure though that the comparison (because of the completely different reptiles involved) is not a balanced one and therefore does not accurately portray the same scenario, or result.

Cheers Dave

 

[bump73]

I agree with what Niggz said..

I mean how many do you really have to keep taking from the wild in order to set up a stable breeding program, especially if wild caught animals breed as well as people are claiming???

I know disease is a problem in peoples collections but doesn't this mean these animals may be getting exposed to more diseases in captivity than they would have if they had been left in the wild?

Ben

 

[DazHerps]

Seems to me that, generally, wc stuff here in Aus can be reasonably trouble free to keep and breed given the right conditions and a sensible approach to establishing them (from both sides of the fence).
It has only been during the last several years that locality specific animals such as rhd woma's, rabbit flat woma's, uluru woma's, cape trib jungles, tully jungles, alice stimi's, cairns spotteds, grafton diamonds, pilbara stimi's, carpets from almost every major town (and let's not start on the lizards), have become available to the market. Where did all these come from, I certainly don't remember them from 10+ years ago.
Let's face it, many of the animals that are in collections now are the result of wc animals within the last few generations and are now well established.
As for the WA govt stance on legal collection of species, I support them completely in the short/medium term (I assume there are expiry dates on theses lisences?)
Far too many reptiles have been lost over the years by numerous individuals with little or no herp experience collecting them from the wild. At least in WA there are persons that actually have a name, a face, an interest in herps and a legitimate business that's success depends on how well they do this job rather than how many animals they collect. More than likely, they have also slowed the illegal collection of the species that they are permitted to take.

Just my 2 bits worth.

 

[TrueBlue]

i agree cockney red, thats why i love to breed pythons.
Thats also why Dave now only collects minimal animals, that have to be spectacular, as hes is also concerntraiting on breeding rather than collecting.

DazHerps,-- well said.

 

[stencorp69]

Your helping us make our point with this statement. Yes our animals ORIGINATED from WC stock but that is it. Almost all stock from the eastern stated are now CB so that we don't have to keep harvesting. This ofcourse has the exception of a few new species or morphs that pop up.

Don't think your helping your own point - the "almost all's" and "the exceptions" are how you are getting all your locale specific animals - the animals most people want, the hypocracy is blinding.

This is why many of "hypocritical" easterns have pointed out the fact that every herper is PRIVILEDGED to be able to own herpers. Therefore that priviledge should be respected by setting up appropriate breeding programmes with founder specimens only. Continuing to take them because people "prefer them" or "need them" because those with the legal permits choose to make the CB stock unavailable to their state is what is so ridiculous.

READ your first paragraph it confirms the hypocracy

I agree with you when you say WA has some of the best looking herps around, that fact is undisputed. However, stating that our animals are all geographically hybridised because we can't obtain WC specimens is ridiculous. What is to stop people is WA attempting to hybridise specimens obtained within WA. Hybridised is a persons own moral choice, not a by-product of not having WC stock available.

Nothing is stopping us hybridising them - I'm just stating the facts of 20 years of breeding in the eastern states. Do a search on this website and you'll see how common it is. You guys actually need some WC to stop the Tasminian syndrome.

The same goes for the inbred comment. If people where to appropriately maintain there collection, no inbreeding would occur. However, people choose to inbred snakes as it is easier to expand your breeding output by supplying yourself and not having to purchase snakes from other. I don't support this but it is the case. The exact same thing will happen with in WA as collections of CB begin to grow with in the state.

Probably less so because we have legal taking and takers GPS locations - this allows true locale specific lines which are more desirable (according to what people want to pay).

It should be duely noted also, that inbreeding with in snakes does not have the negative genetic consequences that it does within other types of animal. If they were to be inbred, generation upon generation upon generation then issues may arise. However, once breeding pairs are established, these will be kept for years and years with out the need to continue inbreeding

I'm not sure that that is correct, true IMO its less of an issue breeding mother/son in reptiles than mammals but if a if you've got 20 years of crap inbreeding selection the animals are going to be mongrels. For some that standard maybe acceptable.

Sten

(sitting at home loving his pure WC WA pythons)

 

[ihaveherps]

Trueblue, how come you have skirted around the initial quote that Dave used in the first post?

Apart from the Pilbara Womas that you have acquired, which have proven to be profound breeders, what other Pilbara species have you bred? We know you have a few BHP's and Stimsons from up there, and I have seen you advertise QLD BHP hatchies, and even Windorah and NT stimmys, yet never seen you sell a single Pilbara BHP or Stimson. Why is that? It wouldnt possibly be that apart from the Pilbara womas, Pilbara wild caught animals

" with sort of back ground, or that are only first generation captive bred animals can be much more touchy and difficult to care for and breed than multigenerational captive bred animals. It worth bearing in mind that the shorter the captive history of a breeding line typically the more difficult it is to breed and the more sensitive to human intervention."

Maybe?

I am all for sustainable wild caught animals entering the market, dont get me wrong, although I personally dont think they are for everyone. Some experienced keepers would thrive given the opportunity to take WC animals in, to breed up a good founder lines, yet not all WC sub-species are as profound as womas, and thus not for the novice to breed. Before I get a half-cooked reply, no, I havent had any personal experience with the Pilbara WC's although pre-licencing all my herps were WC, and took considerably more effort to keep than CB hatchies available these days, especially if purchased from a breeder who gets their stock feeding pre-sale.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

ihaveherps
Since Rob is clearly in bed at this time at night, I will give you some insight.
There has been four clutches layed in total out of all the stimsons exported to breeding programs and 2 of those were infertile. Rob doesn’t have any Pilbara stimsons anymore and hasn’t had for quite sometime and these were gone even before last winters cooling. Due to personal circumstances Rob no longer wanted to maintain such a large collection anymore so he could go back to a far less hectic laid back lifestyle. So I guess he can’t breed reptiles that he doesn’t have.
Infact Rob no longer has in his care green pythons, Palmerston jungles, most of the W.A BHPs and much more.

No captive bred W.A BHPs were produced from Rob this season because of the lack of condition of his females and even if they had the condition, we all no that this is one python that are generally more difficult to breed, no ones argues other wise.
But it is still early days and we will get these happening, I am sure of that.


If you genuinely believe that first generation captive bred of spring have a less
desirable temperament than multi generation captive bred, then good luck to you.
I am far from convinced however and still think it is just marketing hype.
If I am proved wrong however through further experience though, then I would be happy to know, I learnt even more.
Just for interest sake, here is another W.A Reptile dealer ( Roger Jackson )perspective as posted up today on the true blue reptile forum.

Hi all I have collected many wild caught costal carpet pythons and have bred from all of the animals which I have chosen to keep to breed from .But some are more difficult than others,personaly i think it comes down to the individual animal within indivdual species.I have freinds on the east coast that have 3,4,thgeneration captive bred animals and still have trouble breeding some of the individuals they put aside to breed from for colour and pattern etc.

cheers
Jolli

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Of note, would this thread be one of the most viewed in a very long time ? 3600 or something ?

 

[stencorp69]

Dave I thought I saw you post a pic of all your stimi hatchies for this year - did a search on the PP website but couldn't find the link.

This whole argument is done anyway its clear there is pros and cons either way

 

[sengir]

I am not taking a stance on this one as I do not have enough experience with WC animals, but from facts given about what was written in the Rep Australia mag this comment was made as a direct blow to try influence the purchase of WC animals. If it wasn't then maybe Simon should have made more of an effort to explain his view etc in a little more detailed way and explained how and why he came to this conclusion. Just my two cents

 

[ihaveherps]

Cheers Dave, your post is exactly what i was alluding to, although you do seem to be the better wordsmith. You have fronted this debate in a well written, well manner fashion, and I commend you for that. I have no doubt with due care and husbandry fine tuning, all the pilbara animals will be routinely bred, but as I was trying to convey prior, wc individuals will usually be more demanding of their keepers and require a much higher level of understanding of husbandry to breed, not that its impossible by any way or means. There is a big difference in being able to keep a WC animals, and being able to condition and cycle them and result in viable eggs (of course dependant of sub-species and locale, and I am talking Pilbara in this thread).

"If you genuinely believe that first generation captive bred of spring have a less
desirable temperament than multi generation captive bred, then good luck to you."

I dont think thats how my post read, nor was it what I was trying to convey. To me captive bred = captive bred = captive bred, no matter what generation. I completely believe that a CB animal, even 1st gen. will generally be an allround more stable a captive than it WC counterpart. All that being said, I personally have no problems bringing in WC stock, and those that know me will attest that I am planning on collecting a few WC Stimsons from various WA locales within the next yr. I am actually looking forward to having my husbandry tested by difficult captives (not saying they all will be), and having to adjust my keeping strategys to suit the individual animals.

regards
Simon

 

[ravensgait]

True as I mentioned I have dealt with animals that were a long time in shipping and of some species quite different than you have there . I am looking at this as purely Wild caught as to Captive born and bred. Also I'm looking at this from a perspective of the average keeper but also as an experienced keeper. The Average person is going to have some trouble with most WC animals fresh from the wild. Where someone with experience will have better success they still will have problems with some. And lets not forget that they had to gain experience and so had their share of hard times..

To give you an idea of of how long I've messed with WC animals I got my first in 77 a WC ball python, yeah been keeping for a while now lol..

As far as first generation CB animals being more difficult than succeeding generations I suppose to a certain extant it is true.. What do we look for in animals we choose to breed, Appearance, size, health, temperament ETC , Getting the babies feeding is important and what they want to eat. Mice eaters can be hard to change to rats when older, some animals are just more nervous than others or what ever .

Take-- insert species name of choice here ________ you've bred your WC pair and have a group of babies that have say one real stand out as far a looks go so you're keeping that one . Yet you need to keep say 3 or 4 more from the clutch. What are you going to look for in those babies you keep? Your going to want to keep the ones that started well, seem content in their surroundings IE not as nervous as others, your going to pick ones that over all seem to be doing better than the others(doesn't matter if it's puppies or snakes some babies take off faster than others and are just more robust) So say there are 10 babies and you are holding back 5, now the other 5 are going to be released to the public . Some may be bred some might not survive their new owners but over all those animals will not add much to succeeding generations but the 5 you kept will add to it . You can take it farther to breeding these babies those that breed more easily are the ones that deal with everything else better you get more babies from animals that are willing than from those who are not.. Even your looker from the clutch though it may have been a more difficult animal is likely to be bred to an animal that was an easier keeper and there by improve its offspring's ability to thrive in captivity.

Most people who really breed keep the best animals back for themselves to breed, thus the animals with all the best traits are most likely to add far more to following generations than the babies that were a bit more difficult so yes each generation away from WC does get better or easier to keep as over all we have bred the animals that have adapted best to captivity. Again there are exceptions but over all we keep and breed the best animals and each generation becomes better suited to thriving in captivity. Randy

 

[Chimera]

That is why i feel far more comfortable getting w/c off Dave than an animal from anyone at all, except a very few limted number of keepers, and even then only when i have to as it always plays on my mind.

This is the key point, Dave may well establish wild caught animals before they are on-sold however some people won't. So far Dave and Simon have simply presented 2 sides of the same coin. There are positives and negative for both wild caught and captive bred reptiles and new keepers are far better off with a captive bred reptile rather then a wild caught.

Breeders trying to establish true provenance animals will certainly benefit from wild caught.

Any argument based on disease, locality or any form of misrepresentation on this topic is ludicrous as this can happen with either WC or CB animals. It comes down to the individual so bringing these points to the debate only serves to personalise the discussion. Granted, there may be breeders who have virus issues in their collection, but there could also be WC animals that are not being effectively quarantined from personal collections.

 

[TrueBlue]

ihaveherps, as Dave has stated ive cut my collection down by half or more, as i just couldnt produce enough food to breed everything, simple as that.!
The first season i had evreything here i only had 1 mature female pilbara stimmie and it also bred.
The wa bhps, well i just couldnt get enough food to get the females into breeding condition as i had just too many other animals to feed as well, not to mention the 200 odd babies that had to be fed before they could go.
So ive done the wise thing and cut everything right back so that everything will breed as normal.
You can only breed, what you can feed propally.
Im confident that the couple of wa bhps that i kept back will breed this season.

 

[Colin]

It has to be remembered that even if I am successful in setting up breeding programs through the good results of others that produce captive bred pythons out side of W.A, I can not import them back into this state meaning that there is still a shortage in some cases of available captive bred snakes for the growing numbers of new licensee’s within this state.

If these WC animals are so easy to maintain, breed etc as stated exactly why haven't the WA breeders established sustainable captive programs to supply the local WA domestic market? This seems to go against all that has been said on the pro side for WC. How come the people 'outside WA' seem to have success establishing these WC animals but the WA's seem unable to do so in sufficient numbers for their own local trade?

Additionally when you look at the success (for example) Simon Stone had with 1 WC animal ie:blondie and John Weigal with the initial 5 founding RSP's. These animals have been established with young sold to others and they in turn have successful breeding programs..

Stimson pythons (for example) are considered by many as reasonably easy to breed and suggested to beginners as ideal starting species. It seems ludicrous to suggest that the WC WA animals just haven't been established in there own state to supply the local market with some CB animals. What exactly are the Western Australian's doing wrong ?

So what would be the purpose of continually harvesting from the wild given the fact, according to someone who collects, that they breed in captivity as easily as CB animals?

More than enough of the animals on the takers lists have ended up in collections already to establish decent CB numbers so there is absolutely no need to keep taking other than the fact of making money.

Well said Mark. WC definitely has a place in the hobby, but should be used to establish sustainable captive breeding programs.

 

[Matthew Burgess]

i find it amazing that we have all dreamt of keeping these WA species for many years (when they wernt available) and now they are available people whinge, all founder stock of every species be it bird, mammal, reptile or fish originated from wild animals, people wouldnt (legally) have these WA species if it wernt for WC animals, as far as wild caught being more difficult to keep/breed then CB i think it comes down to the individual animal and the way its housed.

 

[Colin]

What I find amazing is this Don't both quote's say basically the same thing? That WC animals 'can be' more difficult to breed and maintain than captive bred aninmals? Yet the first quote started this whole thread.

'Snakes with sort of back ground, or that are only first generation captive bred animals can be much more touchy and difficult to care for and breed than multigenerational captive bred animals." .

Many people believe that wild caught snakes are harder to breed than captive born.
While this can be true with individual specimens my experience has shown me that all wild caught species of pythons can indeed be bred successfully in captivity if maintained correctly and specimens have appropriately adapted to their captive environment