salebrosus
Very Well-Known Member
How rude, John Bowe is from Tasmania and he is not inbred.
I certainly love wild caughts for that reason, you know the location and you know its an animal that isn't a 5th generation inbred.
Simone.
Wild Caught debate
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How rude, John Bowe is from Tasmania and he is not inbred.
I certainly love wild caughts for that reason, you know the location and you know its an animal that isn't a 5th generation inbred.
Simone.
S
Slateman
Guest
I am not expert on this subject about WC or CB snakes. Far from it. But I know bit about forum discussions.
I am so happy that people are communicating on great social level in this topic.
This thread is example of meaningful discussion you can get on public forum, if people behave like mature adults.
Well done APS members.
I am so happy that people are communicating on great social level in this topic.
This thread is example of meaningful discussion you can get on public forum, if people behave like mature adults.
Well done APS members.
PilbaraPythons
Very Well-Known Member
ravensgait
Your quote
The Average person is going to have some trouble with most WC animals fresh from the wild. Where someone with experience will have better success they still will have problems with some.
Reply
Here in W.A most of us will only supply wild caught snakes that are doing fine in the first place. It would be suicide as a business to do otherwise.
This is why I say the opposite; the majority of people will experience no difficulty.
I must add that I witnessed an emaciated black headed python (not far from death) for sale in a pet shop in Perth last year. I asked the shop keepers when it had last fed and not one person could tell me, or if they had ever had it feeding as they had only purchased it three weeks prior. I tracked down the supplier and explained the ramifications in regard to his reputation if he supplied un feeding troublesome critters. He agreed and no longer does so. So the point is that there can still be the odd cowboy out there but generally the W.A situation with responsible suppliers is good.
As we are the biggest exporters of some species of pythons, this is why I took offence to the original statements by Simon Stone (regardless of his intention), as W.A was singled out in an answer (about snakes) and the negatives attached which I believed applied generally but less to the true scenario in regards to snakes supplied by us and a few others.
This whole discussion thread has some what evolved away from the relevance of my initial whinge but I guess I did title the thread, Wild Caught Debate after all.
It’s been fun though (what am I crazy)
Cheers Dave
Your quote
The Average person is going to have some trouble with most WC animals fresh from the wild. Where someone with experience will have better success they still will have problems with some.
Reply
Here in W.A most of us will only supply wild caught snakes that are doing fine in the first place. It would be suicide as a business to do otherwise.
This is why I say the opposite; the majority of people will experience no difficulty.
I must add that I witnessed an emaciated black headed python (not far from death) for sale in a pet shop in Perth last year. I asked the shop keepers when it had last fed and not one person could tell me, or if they had ever had it feeding as they had only purchased it three weeks prior. I tracked down the supplier and explained the ramifications in regard to his reputation if he supplied un feeding troublesome critters. He agreed and no longer does so. So the point is that there can still be the odd cowboy out there but generally the W.A situation with responsible suppliers is good.
As we are the biggest exporters of some species of pythons, this is why I took offence to the original statements by Simon Stone (regardless of his intention), as W.A was singled out in an answer (about snakes) and the negatives attached which I believed applied generally but less to the true scenario in regards to snakes supplied by us and a few others.
This whole discussion thread has some what evolved away from the relevance of my initial whinge but I guess I did title the thread, Wild Caught Debate after all.
It’s been fun though (what am I crazy)
Cheers Dave
Australis
Almost Legendary
From what i can gather, on how the system works with CALM in WA, compared to the eastern states.
At face value CALM doesnt look to be very supportive of captive breeding at all for the average herper.
Your average bloke can only "sell" one clutch a year?? Or something along those lines....
Maybe someone from WA could explain the nitty gritty.. on this.
I would also guess that just about everyone who imports a WA w/c animal over to the east has plans
to breed from it, which might not be the case within WA.. being more of a pet snake market.
Atleast EVERY person i know who has imported WA w/c animals has on the basis to breed from them.
stencorp69
Well-Known Member
OK - I've got a suggestion to answer your question. Get rid of 95% the captive eastern states reptiles and take see if you can breed enough in 4 years to meet the demand - you couldn't do it even with CB. Most people who are interested in breeding are actually having success with stimi, woma and carpets but given that we can only sell 1 clutch with out paying $1000 per year for a farmers license it makes it a bit unrealistic to think that we can support demand via CB for a few years yet. Even then let's hope we still have a system which allows "exceptions" to be taken to improve breeding lines.
Simone sorry about the Tasmania jibe if it makes you feel any better Perth is proof that Tasmania was connected to the mainland :lol::lol: (I'm an itinerant over here)
Sten
It doesn't change the fact that it is ludicrous that captive bred populations haven't been established in WA, it simply means that the regulators are to blame.
Colin
morelia
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Exactly. Although it might be a bit expensive for the person with one pair of snakes... If you had several breeding pairs you would quickly recoup that $1000 and still make a considerable profit. How much do the WA snakes sell for in WA?? consideranbly more than over here. If you have the breeding animals and $1000 to spare (and if you have a few animals this would be quite likely) then although its probably overpriced, to not get the farmer's licence is ludicrous. :lol:
Hiding behind that 'expensive' farmers licence scenario Stencorp is just a cop out for why there hasn't been sustainable captive breeding programs set up in WA to supply the local market. Although there probably is a growing interest in reptile keeping and new people coming into it in WA, I can't see that it would compare to the growing rise of interest in the eastern states. I don't have figures on this and may be wrong but would assume that this would be the case.
If legal collecting stopped in WA then extensive captive breeding programs in WA would appear overnight (imo)
Agreed
why? Because WC animals are (generally) no way as good in the captive environment as multigenerational CB animals :lol:
chilli
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i think that programmes are unlikely to be invested in because of the perception that you can't compete with businesses that can take from the wild an unlimited number. if the demand was there, wc's would supply the numbers before anyone bred them.
and folks, you don't have to express your view thirty times just to keep the thread going, it really aint as interesting as you think dave. what's the phrase, mountain out of a mole hill?
and folks, you don't have to express your view thirty times just to keep the thread going, it really aint as interesting as you think dave. what's the phrase, mountain out of a mole hill?
PilbaraPythons
Very Well-Known Member
Another reason why there is an extreme lack of enthusiasm in holding a farmers licence, is a loop hole in legislation. Any given keeper can dispose of unlimited clutches to a dealer if they considered them unwanted stock and this can be done immediately. Farmers rules however are different i.e. they can not move stock until three month after any progeny is born. Although this does not perhaps affect the number of reptile clutches being produced so much in a private capacity, it does make it a lot less commercially attractive to be an official licensed farmer. Although the keeper rules state that un wanted stock cannot be sold but only given away to licensed dealers, most are paid for under the table so to speak thus creating competition for the licensed farmers and as a consequence,( and like I have said before) less incentive to become a farmer in the first place.
The current supply as in wild caught is keeping up with the demand for most species,
The question that remains though, is the wild collecting sustainable? The government departments, who specialize in over seeing the conservation of those reptiles, say yes.
Make no mistake though in the future here in W.A, there will be enough consistently bred to end the wild collecting of most species.
chilli
Perhaps interesting is not the appropriate word, maybe I should have said entertainment after all the number of views speak for themselves.
The current supply as in wild caught is keeping up with the demand for most species,
The question that remains though, is the wild collecting sustainable? The government departments, who specialize in over seeing the conservation of those reptiles, say yes.
Make no mistake though in the future here in W.A, there will be enough consistently bred to end the wild collecting of most species.
chilli
Perhaps interesting is not the appropriate word, maybe I should have said entertainment after all the number of views speak for themselves.
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
Australis has it in one!!! I can speak with authority here, whilst I don't want to get into the argument re CBB vs WC (each has advantages in my opinion, and I have been keeping both, in WA and the eastern states, for over 45 years)... I was on the committee of 3 people who finally negotiated the "system" which now exists in WA. I should say also at this point that in the final detail, it bears little resemblance to what we (thought) we were promised when negotiations concluded.
There are HUGE impediments to large scale captive breeding in WA, this namely the up-front costs involved. The $1000 "farmers" licence which is required of anyone who breeds more than one clutch of ANYTHING (even bobtails, which only have 2 babies!) is a total absurdity, and simple a bureaucratic ripoff. This only serves to discourage hobby keepers from breeding, and greatly reduces the chances of larger numbers of CB animals becoming available.
The keeping of (pet) reptiles in WA became law in March 2003, and subsequently a number of people applied for, and were given, licences to take from the wild. Some of these licences turned up in the most unlikely hands, and some collectors had absolutely no experience with reptiles at all, but rightly saw the chance of an easy dollar. I'm not sure how many "takers" licences remain extant at this time, but it reflects very poorly on the management of the Wildlife Branch of DEC (formerly CALM) that captive breeding results in WA remain so poor, and that any of the original "takers" licences remain current. They have been operative for almost 5 years now, with no restriction on the numbers of the nominated species being imposed.
The fact that captive breeding results in the herp community in WA have been so poor HAS to be because the punitive costs imposed by CALM/DEC work as a significant deterrent to breeding activities, and the fact that home breeders can ONLY sell to dealers (unless they fork out several hundred dollars more for a dealer's licence!), so they can effectively only ask for half as much per animal as the dealer/seller will realise for it. It is an absurd situation, and one that simply defies logic.
5 years unlimited take of targetted species should be sufficient time to get the numbers required into the system and get some decent breeding results happening... but it seems there has been no forwrad planning by the department on this matter at all.
By the way, I am not against selective, limited wild take from time to time anywhere in this country, especially if it is done with minimal habitat disturbance (ie., road collecting, or taking desired rescue animals into captivity.
And Stencorp - you need to get over your parochial resentment of keepers in the eastern states - I moved over here 3 years ago, and the scene here is a breath of fresh air, with reasonably sensible bureaucrats (comparatively!) and a huge range of beautiful animals to select from and work with. I have not one single regret since leaving WA and the oppression herp keepers face in that state.
Jamie.
There are HUGE impediments to large scale captive breeding in WA, this namely the up-front costs involved. The $1000 "farmers" licence which is required of anyone who breeds more than one clutch of ANYTHING (even bobtails, which only have 2 babies!) is a total absurdity, and simple a bureaucratic ripoff. This only serves to discourage hobby keepers from breeding, and greatly reduces the chances of larger numbers of CB animals becoming available.
The keeping of (pet) reptiles in WA became law in March 2003, and subsequently a number of people applied for, and were given, licences to take from the wild. Some of these licences turned up in the most unlikely hands, and some collectors had absolutely no experience with reptiles at all, but rightly saw the chance of an easy dollar. I'm not sure how many "takers" licences remain extant at this time, but it reflects very poorly on the management of the Wildlife Branch of DEC (formerly CALM) that captive breeding results in WA remain so poor, and that any of the original "takers" licences remain current. They have been operative for almost 5 years now, with no restriction on the numbers of the nominated species being imposed.
The fact that captive breeding results in the herp community in WA have been so poor HAS to be because the punitive costs imposed by CALM/DEC work as a significant deterrent to breeding activities, and the fact that home breeders can ONLY sell to dealers (unless they fork out several hundred dollars more for a dealer's licence!), so they can effectively only ask for half as much per animal as the dealer/seller will realise for it. It is an absurd situation, and one that simply defies logic.
5 years unlimited take of targetted species should be sufficient time to get the numbers required into the system and get some decent breeding results happening... but it seems there has been no forwrad planning by the department on this matter at all.
By the way, I am not against selective, limited wild take from time to time anywhere in this country, especially if it is done with minimal habitat disturbance (ie., road collecting, or taking desired rescue animals into captivity.
And Stencorp - you need to get over your parochial resentment of keepers in the eastern states - I moved over here 3 years ago, and the scene here is a breath of fresh air, with reasonably sensible bureaucrats (comparatively!) and a huge range of beautiful animals to select from and work with. I have not one single regret since leaving WA and the oppression herp keepers face in that state.
Jamie.
Colin
morelia
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Thats great news Dave. I hope that your one of the front runners with these sustainable CB programs for the WA species in the future and wish you every success. I'm not totally against WC collection and feel it has benefitted us all initially, but also feel that the ultimate aim should be to establish sustainable captive breeding programs with these WC founding stock.
It's interesting to hear the licencing requirements stated by yourself and Jamie. Most of us in the eastern states (myself included) are probably not aware of most of these requiremnets.
Maybe the aussie reptile keepers need to try and get the government to implement a unified across the board licencing system for all states that are fair to everyone and that also protect our native fauna, habitat destruction etc.
How exactly this could be done I'm not sure but maybe it would be a good new thread?
Den from Den Pythons
Very Well-Known Member
This thread has turned into a slinging match at times. It's very sad that a discussion can't be had without certain people getting on their horse and slaying a few tall poppies.......
All the best
Den
All the best
Den
Last edited:
Den from Den Pythons
Very Well-Known Member
Now that i read my post i realise i've entered into the 'slashing' group that many enjoy to be in. Peoples personal opinions of others are not my business so appologies to some. The point I was trying to get accross is debates can be handled in a civil manour as proved by both Pilbara Pythons and Doc.
Regards
Den
stencorp69
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Although it might be a bit expensive for the person with one pair of snakes... If you had several breeding pairs you would quickly recoup that $1000 and still make a considerable profit. How much do the WA snakes sell for in WA?? consideranbly more than over here. If you have the breeding animals and $1000 to spare (and if you have a few animals this would be quite likely) then although its probably overpriced, to not get the farmer's licence is ludicrous. :lol:
Hiding behind that 'expensive' farmers licence scenario Stencorp is just a cop out for why there hasn't been sustainable captive breeding programs set up in WA to supply the local market. Although there probably is a growing interest in reptile keeping and new people coming into it in WA, I can't see that it would compare to the growing rise of interest in the eastern states. I don't have figures on this and may be wrong but would assume that this would be the case.
If legal collecting stopped in WA then extensive captive breeding programs in WA would appear overnight (imo)
Agreed
I'm guessing from all the smileys that this reply is meant to be a joke or an attempt at humor? If its not then I'm guessing you don't actual breed reptiles, as regardless of the animal being CB or WC from hatchy to breeding age for most pythons is in excess of 2.5 years more likely 4. Given that we've had the system in place for 4 years I'm hoping you can do the maths? It would take some time to get a sustainable CB program going regardless of the parents being CB or WC - so the over night scenario is a bit fanciful - in 20 years we will be in the same position the eastern states is.
On your last paragraph - please read what I posted. With only 5% of your CB population you would not be able to breed enough animals to meet the current demand in your state.
Sten
ihaveherps
Well-Known Member
Stencorp, since when are all WC animals hatchlings? I would have thought that the majority of the WC animals were sub-adult if not adult specimens? Also seeing as the breeding age in stimsons and womas can easliy be attained at 2.5 yrs, and that is generous, I dont see how having 2nd gen CB animals at this point in time is so far fetched.
stencorp69
Well-Known Member
Not far fetched but let say you got adult WC animals some time during spring 2003? They then bred the following autumn/winter in 2004 with eggs being laid in Oct(ish) 2004, hatching in January 2005. At 2 years old the year will be 2007. They'll breed in the winter of 2007 with the 2nd gen babies being born January this year. So yes its possible but not even with CB breeding programs would you be able to supply demand in WA from nothing to what is required in this time frame. Do the sums it didn't happen in the east this way you guys were taking from the wild left right and centre and you legalised them all by an amnesty. LETS keep it real or at least look at your own (my own) past before pasting this off.
Sten - fingers getting tired of stating the obvious
Sten - fingers getting tired of stating the obvious
Bravo, too hard so why bother. The python breeding industry in the eastern states may not have copped the same obtuse legalities as WA, but there were certainly a few pioneering efforts that got it off the ground.
Maybe it is the lack of large CB suppliers that is limiting the expansion of herpetoculture in WA, I wonder where we would be in the eastern states if there weren't people who pu t a large effort into expanding the hobby. The NSW license system is a testament to that.
This is not directed at anyone individually, but perhaps it is time that larger keepers and organisations in WA stopped hiding behind the regulations and started using them as best they can.
Or am I stating the obvious
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