Wild-caught Green Tree Pythons?

[Koula]

Well, I just got back from the local flea markets today (I'm now the proud owner of a nice Nepenthes ventricosa) and got talking herps with a guy buying a large 2nd-hand fishtank for his (licenced) childrens pythons...

Anyhow, he tells me his dream herp to own is a GTP or 2 (yeah, he knows they are pricey and hard to get) but he also said that one of his mates up north keeps "heaps" of them. When I asked if the mate was a breeder, the guy said "Nup, he just gets 'em out of the wild", so I asked about the legalities and the guy just gave a smug grin and said "He's not licenced and it's not like the EPA or cops are gunna go bashing on his door as he lives out bush and keeps 'em inside." I was gunna ask if he was going to take a wild (and possibly parasite-riddled) GTP off his mate or get a captive-bred one, but he'd made his purchase and started loading his tank.

So, are GTPs only rare in captivity? Or are they rare in the wild as well? Cuz the way this guy was talking, he made 'em sound like they were common as buns and biccies in a bakery.

*slightly annoyed about wild herps being taken/kept, but if they are being kept healthy and happy then yeah - whatcha gunna do 'bout it?* :x :?

 

[basketcase]

there are lots of wc herps around. it wouldnt surprise me if there were more wc greens than cb... but whos goin to prove that?

i know of ppl that live off collecting from the wild (im not talking about the WA herps either)

why not go on a holiday to the iron range and pick up a few greens while your at it? until the prices come down, like the insane prices ppl pay for greens, it'll keep happening.

in my mind this is one good thing about some of the different morphs that you can get in captivity. theyre almost all cb.

 

[Greebo]

Sounds like one of those, I know a bloke who knows a bloke stories to me.

 

[The Rock]

They are common in parts of their Range, but captive bred animals are far superior to wild caught, hence the price tag and of course cause they arnt common in captivity,(legal ones anyway).
Rob

 

[Retic]

Yeah from what I understand they are pretty common, it is just that the price has been kept artificially high by breeders. Don't get me wrong if I was breeding them I would quite likely ask the same as everyone else.
I agree that probably in captivity there would be more WC than CB.

 

[NCHERPS]

There's a guy called 'David Wilson'(I think that's his name), he has been studying GTP's in the wild for the past few years, and they aren't as common as you would think in and around Iron range.
Captive bred are always better than WC for a number of reasons, unfortunately alot of these rogue collectors are just in it for the money, and probably try to pass them off as CB.
Of course I am sure some gravid ones are taken too, and if they were successfully hatched, it would make it hard for anyone to tell the difference, they do it alot in Indonesia, they collect gravid GTP's and say they are CB in there breeding farms, but they are almost all Captive hatched, not bred.

Neil

 

[Guest]

re Wild

Theres quite a few in captivity in NSW about 110 and then theres QLD,VIC, SA,and probably NT keepers so there not scarce compared to many of the other species on NSW list anyway.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

And you don't have to be doing any thing illegal to be accused of it either. As of two days ago Port Hedland customs told many people in our area that Pilbara Pythons was illegally selling snakes. These morons know perfectly well that Pilbara Pythons is a licenced operation but still elected to publicly defame us. Tommorrow we begin the process of legal action against Australian Customs for defamation. We will keep every one posted as it progresses.

 

[Grant]

Sorry to hear about that Pilbara. but back onto taking GTPs from the wild yep they are rare. A species can be locally abundant, but due to the small area that their habitat consists of are classified as rare. Classification goes along the line of (for GTPs) Narrow endemic; Specific habitat; locally abundant, this is from the Rabinowitz 7 types of rarity scale that is used to define rarity of an organism. Plus due the habitat specificity being small aspects such as reducing gene pools through taking GTPs out of the wild can be detrimental to the species in later years (and yes every one you take out does count). So if this guy is taking them out of the wild he's a bloody idiot and when in it comes to rare species EPA does care, and hopefully he'll get caught soon.
Sorry for the long post but stuff like that really #@*^ me off!

 

[Brodie]

Where were u guys when everyone was havin a go at me for saying collecting wild GTPs would damage the population .

Good luck on the case pilbara. Those bastards

 

[Nome]

High prices should never be an exuse or reason to WC, anyone who can do that doesn't have a conscious or a real passion for reptiles.

Fact is, they are going to be highly priced for some time yet. You can't buy sexed hatchlings, they aren't easy to raise, they can have some unique problems, that causes the breeder a huge amount of stress because of the price they had to pay for them. They also become a theft target and have to basically live like a hermit and not divulge their addresses. I don't blame them for charging upwards of $6000.

People are happily paying upwards of $6000 for albinos as well and imo greens are much more desirable than these. But everyone has their own thing.

Prices just don't come down because the people breeding them have had to live with the stress of getting them to breeding age etc and the ones that are multigeneration CB in most cases payed the same themselves.

I reckon it's very fair they ask that much. Anyone that is a greedy &%$* that just wants to take them out of the wild for any reason should be put in a box to live in when they are used to freedom and see how they like it. :evil:

 

[Retic]

My argument has always been that they are bred in very large numbers (relatively speaking) throughout the world and are priced accordingly. In the UK they are around $700 and in the States a bit less than that. I know several people that have bred them a few times and they are not that difficult really, as long as you follow a few simple rules they don't give many problems.

 

[Retic]

I said then and still think now that a few of any species removed from the wild has little if any affect on the wild population in most cases.

Where were u guys when everyone was havin a go at me for saying collecting wild GTPs would damage the population .

Good luck on the case pilbara. Those illegitimate children

 

[Guest]

re Wild

Been here before,if some werte removed from the wild it would make no difference to the wild population survival because they have an environment intact.I dont care one way or the other but to argue that taking a few out is going to make a difference is just codswollup.

 

[Retic]

Yep, agree totally. If removing a few animals had any affect then the sheer numbers killed on our roads, killed by feral animals, killed by idots with shovels and killed by habitat destruction then half the reptiles in the country would be endangered.

 

[Nephrurus]

Yep, totally agree. I can't think of one species that has suffered due to individuals being removed from the wild for private/commercial purposes...... Whats the current population estimate for Blue Whales? Not many? and Passenger pigeons...?

I know, extreme cases, but the point is there.
I think you have to look at the sizes and dynamics of the populations BEFORE you can start saying "She'll be right" when you take a few animals. If you're taking animals from a small population (naturally low numbers) a few animals can make a huge difference. For example, the last surviving population of bandicoots in Sydney is at the quarantine station near Manly. A slight increase (say... a couple more animals per year) in the current adult mortality will have dire consequences for the population (extinction within 50 years).

The removal of three or four green pythons may result in the inability for a small population to recover from a catastrophe. I'm not sure about GTP movements/home ranges, but i would'nt think they, as a species, have a huge capacity for recolonisation. A few animals could make a huge difference to a small population.

More has to be learnt about these animals in order to ascertain the damage, if any, of taking them from the wild.

-H

 

[africancichlidau]

Well spoken Nephy !

 

[Nome]

My argument has always been that they are bred in very large numbers (relatively speaking) throughout the world and are priced accordingly. In the UK they are around $700 and in the States a bit less than that. I know several people that have bred them a few times and they are not that difficult really, as long as you follow a few simple rules they don't give many problems.

Yes, they are, but BHPs, scrub pythons, shinglebacks and a few other oz species are priced much higher in the states. Overseas, they also have access to a large number of localities of GTPs and they have been bred, cross bred explaining all the differing colour morphs. Here we only have the iron range ones, and regardless of the fact that there has been others enter the country and been crossbred with ours, the majority are still 'deemed aussie'.

They may be bred in large numbers overseas, but they aren't here. You can't compare the market in Oz to anywhere else in the world with greens, as we can't import anything, they can.

I don't know enough to know if it affects wild populations, but what I think is horrible is that idiots go out collecting them to keep illegally and then use the exuse that they could have never afforded them otherwise and it's the markets problem that they are expensive, etc etc. If there were some regulated and licensed system for a few experienced breeders to collect some to supply the hobby with CB GTPs, then maybe that would be different. I don't agree with it, but at least it would be regulated, as they did with the RSPs.

Also, there were many more breeders in the hobby years ago, but due to a corrupt person, many were confiscated and no one knows what happened to the majority of them, but it doesn't take much brains to work out what did. There were very few returned once it went through court, as apparently, most of them 'died' in the zoos they were allocated to.

And, honestly, if you had to pay out the money for greens, raise them, breed them, and turn into a hermit in order to not get burgled, spent the money out on secruity (not that this has stopped some, people have been robbed during the day whilst they were at home), can you say that you would think that the average keeper deserved a much more reasonable price and sell your hatchlings for much less than $7000?

It's supply and demand, the same reason people defended the price on stone's albinos. Believe me, there is no shortage of buyers for greens. And it's like having a flash car, it's just the way life is, some people can afford it, others can't, but no one's going to reduce the price just so the average person can afford it.

 

[Koula]

Hear, hear. I'm happy with my little spotted python - he may not be super green, but at least he's handleable and friendly.

PS: LOL! My other half just said "GTPs are the 'penis extension' of herping!". :roll:

 

[Retic]

I think you might find that the majority of GTP in Australia are actually deemed to be of foreign origin.