Australian Representative Herp Body

[insitu]

Before we decide to tackle projects like importing and exporting,keeping exotic species etc id imagine to become a united industry we would need national standards across all states such as a national licence not a state licence, included in that id imagine would come national caging standards, which id then assume would follow animal welfare standards as i dont see NSW dropping their standards to below welfares, that would mean no more tub rack systems across australia for adult animals, changing the legislation of each state to a nation ven lic which would mean possibly no more paying extra for a ven endorsement and possibly 5 yrs of keeping to aquire the top level ven lic, I would like to see crocodiles in more states than the southern ones but again that would probably mean changing the southern states caging sizes to suit welfare standards which is well above the fishtanks people keep them in, if we as a hobby were to breed endangered species as a conservation effort id imagine that would require stud books, stud book keepers, taxon advisory groups etc and so on and that would mean no more line breeding and breeding for selected traits etc etc.................. Personally i can see it as a good thing if its managed right and unbiased with the right intentions, but exporting and etc i only see as a dollar spinner and for me thats not the right intentions, as for legalizing trafficking well it didnt help any species of varanid or python and so on in indonesia did it, infact it did the opposite

 

[junglepython2]

There seems to be a lot of focus on "exporting" native reptiles overseas. While I am not necessarily opposed to the idea I think the organisation should at least initially focus on protecting the current rights we have and working on the more pressing issues we face.

 

[wokka]

There seems to be a lot of focus on "exporting" native reptiles overseas. While I am not necessarily opposed to the idea I think the organisation should at least initially focus on protecting the current rights we have and working on the more pressing issues we face.

The illegal shipment/smuggling of animals to and from overseas is responsible for major welfare ,environmental damage and biosecurity risks which may compromise both captive and wild populations. Legal movement protocols can address many of the current risks as opposed to the current head in the sand licencing which does nothing to help either captive or wild animals.

 

[Owzi]

2. Improve Conservation outcomes for reptiles.

• Advanced keepers should be able to keep, breed and trade in captive bred reptiles, including endangered species. In terms of rare species, exportation would be promoted as a conservation activity aimed at forestalling extinction of a declining species in this country - while the relevant authorities find a fix for the cause of the declines in the wild. You could call it an “ex-situ, anti-extinction” activity if you like. The 'International Union for the Conservation of Nature' (one of the world highest rating international conservation bodies) support this idea. The Endangered Gouldian Finch is an example of this. E.G. There are more Gouldians breeding in captivity overseas, than exist in the wild in Australia.
• Help the Government conservation agencies to understand that increased ‘legal’ breeding and trading in reptiles can destroy the illegal wildlife trafficker’s business model and stop poaching dead in its tracks.
• Urge the Government conservation agencies to actively promote and nurture the keeping and breeding of rare species amongst private keepers. This could develop into a new and important conservation arm of the agencies. A logical spinoff from this would be genuine conservation benefit for rare species, as opposed to the current expenditure on compliance, which has dubious conservation benefit for most (maybe any) species.
• Lobby Govt. agencies to have most common reptiles removed from the “permitted” species lists. The permit system does little or nothing to improve the conservation status of common species and yet it can cost state governments millions of dollars in compliance costs. These dollars would be better spent on real conservation projects. The government agencie’s core role is the conservation of species, not the welfare of individual animals. This points needs to be driven home to state politicians, policy makers and the public at large.
• The advanced keepers will develop the husbandry techniques needed to keep and breed Threatened Species. This knowledge would then be passed down the line to regular keepers who purchase captive bred endangered species from the advanced keepers. It would all be done hand in glove with the wildlife authorities up to the point when the species becomes common in captivity. The Rough Scaled Python is an example of this. I recognise of course that this will most likely apply only to the bigger, prettier and charismatic species. As for who will save the small, brown and boring – well that is exactly what a national body like this should concern itself with.
• Urge the Federal conservation agencies to develop protocols for the commercial trade of captive bred Australian reptiles overseas.

Brilliant post & I agree 110% with these points!
People put zoos on such a pedestal, yeah some are great but I have also seen some private keepers/breeders set ups that would rival many zoos. Particularly when a private keeper focuses on one species. Many first time captive breeding success stories have come from private breeders.
To me it makes absolute sense to allow someone with the knowledge, skills, passion, dedication, drive & willingness to fund a private breeding project of an endangered species the opportunity to do so.

 

[Ramsayi]

It's good to see some highly experienced people willing to get this off the ground.Others have had a go in the past with zero success.Time to let this fresh group have a crack at it which in my mind would most likely be able to garner enough support to make it happen.

 

[Waterrat]

Greg, don't take much notice what's said here or on facebook or other social media. There is a silence majority out there who are watching, reading and thinking. They are the stronghold that will support this movement.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Although it does seem to be putting the cart before the horse a bit, the organisation really does need to have a name very early on, so it can be built as a proper legal entity from day one, particularly because it will be taking members money, probably from day one. I'm assuming it will need to be an incorporated body, this facilitates the setting up of bank accounts and all those structural things, and means that the body must be accountable for every cent whenever audited.

If I recall, to have a body like this incorporated, you need to have all the office-bearers named and in place, similarly to establish bank accounts for an incorporated body. So there's a bit of work to do to get the show up and running.

The names I'd find easy are ARKA - Australian Reptile Keepers Association, or one I find even more appealing - OzARK - Oz Association of Reptile Keepers. This dovetails nicely with USARK, and although I haven't followed their developing philosophy, if it was agreeable perhaps the Australian body could seek some sort of affiliation with our US counterparts. Just a thought bubble really. I've had a couple of quite long yarns with Brian Barczyk about our plight and the parallels with what the Yanks are dealing with now. It won't be too long before the influences that have successfully infected herp politics in the US will cast their eyes in our direction - the world is shrinking every day, and animal RIGHTS lobbyists can very easily dress up their debates as animal WELFARE to make them palatable even to reptile keepers. They are patient, skilled at politics and they are extremely well funded.

Jamie

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

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[Slickturtle]

Hi in situ and jungle python 2.

You are both correct. We certainly need to deal with the 'here and now' first. It could be many years before something like international export is tacked.

But what I am doing is posting the 'big picture' of all the things that this body might do - eventually. I probably should have moved the international export bit further down the list to give it less prominence. The things that you list are the things that would be tackled in the short term.

BTW in situ, have you got a reference for the Indonesian varanid story? I would like to find out more. I know a bit about the discovery of a news species of black and blue tree monitor in north west West Papua. Was it that story?

 

[insitu]

no greg it was more in relation to exporting of wild caught animals to countries that do allow importation, thousands of chondros, prasinus the blue, yellow, and black flavors from tiny islands have been exploited for decades, legalizing exportation will only open up easier loop holes to move wild caught animals in my opinion, the average keeper here doesnt have the funds or the facility to ready our animals for export, plus overseas they have every cross bred form of reptile we have in collections, their more interested in localitys bar a very small minority of what we keep, i mean look at mulgas for example, if we were allowed to export and overseas there was a high demand for the impressive top enders where lets just say their offering 10k an animal, considering there are very little being bred in captivity what do you think will happen to the remaining small populations left in the top end?.

as for the bigger picture of the idea I think it has some merit but im struggling to work out if thats from my hopes and dreams of it or its actual intentions and yes im one that will take a little more convincing than just being told it will be good for all of us, i dont back a horse until iv seen it run

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Thoughtful comments there insitu, and I think you're right on the money when it comes to the international movement of any wildlife from anywhere actually - despite the fact that many, if not most, species can be and are bred in captivity these days, the demand for things like small monitors across the globe will always outweigh the supply of captive bred stock, so wild poulations will always be exploited for personal gain. And it's impossible close all loopholes that allow it to happen, especially where corruption is endemic. You can get pretty much any animal in the world if you're prepared to pay enough for it.

I feel we have enough material to work on here in Oz to keep us busy with the bureaucrats for the forseeable future, without looking beyond our shores - either for inbound or outbound stock. There are deep philosophical and reasonable biosecurity reasons why we don't let reptiles in or out of the country. The biosecurity matters may be easier to address than the philosophical ones in the long run.

Jamie

 

[Bushman]

I totally agree Jamie. There's more than enough work to be done domestically, as Greg concedes international trade is best put on the backburner. It may even be used against us if that is cited as being on the agenda.
This discussion has become very interesting and productive. It's very encouraging to see so much support for this idea. I admire the foresight and love the initiative that herps are taking with this. From what I can gather there's a tremendous amount of support for this venture and as mentioned a lot of this is the silent majority. We've long needed a unified approach to tackling issues and threats against us, so this is heartening to see this starting to happen.

 

[Sean_L]

I agree with Bushman. Lets look locally first and move up to those more controversial issues. It'll be much harder to garner support, let alone allow this association to be passed by government if we start spouting too much change that could be construed as potentially harmful to conservation efforts.

Ill be the one to put it out there though; this could quickly descend into a dark place. It seems that the majority of aims for this association are to lift that, abolish this, allow that; and that mightn't produce the best outlook for the future of this association.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with this idea, but Id hate to see it stall again because of conservationists and welfare groups claiming that were just trying to be greedy. There does need to be legislation in place, im afraid. Its unavoidable. The association should be about influencing the direction of rules, not throwing them all out the window.


On a side note.....I already suggested here that private keepers should be enlisted to help conservation efforts with various species. I was shot down because it was an apparently ridiculous idea.
I hope that people genuinely believe there's environmental good behind this association and aren't just promoting it because they stand to save a buck and get away with a lot more in the future. They're the wrong reasons.

 

[Slickturtle]

Hello all,

Here is another suggestion to get your teeth into. What do you think about this as a valid issue for a national body to get its teeth into?

4. Develop agreed policy positions on contentious reptiles such as morphs, dangerous elapids, large Varanids and large pythons.

• This could be difficult and time consuming. But it could be very important. I see a situation where people who keep these things form a working group under the umbrella of the new national body. They then work up a policy covering all the aspects of their activities that cause grief to them and others. When the ‘difficult’ issues are forensically examined by this group, (with input from other relevant experts e.g. reptile vets, and risk assessors) they may come to the view that there are certain aspects of their hobby that need special attention via a code of conduct or similar. In other words, formalise self-regulation to prevent ham-fisted regulation being imposed from outside – if it is not already.
• The outcome (hopefully) would be that their ‘vision statement’ and policy document could be reviewed and signed off on, by the majority of association members (Management Committee) and then held up as a strong defence against Government departments or others who would seek to outlaw the keeping of contentious species of reptiles.
• If a policy document covering aspects such as animal ethics (e.g. issues around morphs), welfare, conservation, ecological integrity (if a morph escapes for instance), numbers kept, public safety, keeper safety etc. could be agreed upon – then I would hope that the entire herp community would stand behind these people to defend them and their particular interest. At the moment – in contrast – they are easy, stand-alone targets for criticism; probably unjustifiably.

 

[junglepython2]

Hello all,

Here is another suggestion to get your teeth into. What do you think about this as a valid issue for a national body to get its teeth into?

4. Develop agreed policy positions on contentious reptiles such as morphs, dangerous elapids, large Varanids and large pythons.

• This could be difficult and time consuming. But it could be very important. I see a situation where people who keep these things form a working group under the umbrella of the new national body. They then work up a policy covering all the aspects of their activities that cause grief to them and others. When the ‘difficult’ issues are forensically examined by this group, (with input from other relevant experts e.g. reptile vets, and risk assessors) they may come to the view that there are certain aspects of their hobby that need special attention via a code of conduct or similar. In other words, formalise self-regulation to prevent ham-fisted regulation being imposed from outside – if it is not already.
• The outcome (hopefully) would be that their ‘vision statement’ and policy document could be reviewed and signed off on, by the majority of association members (Management Committee) and then held up as a strong defence against Government departments or others who would seek to outlaw the keeping of contentious species of reptiles.
• If a policy document covering aspects such as animal ethics (e.g. issues around morphs), welfare, conservation, ecological integrity (if a morph escapes for instance), numbers kept, public safety, keeper safety etc. could be agreed upon – then I would hope that the entire herp community would stand behind these people to defend them and their particular interest. At the moment – in contrast – they are easy, stand-alone targets for criticism; probably unjustifiably.

I agree, protecting the rights of some the easier targets such as vens and large monitor keepers is extremely important and one of the main reasons I want to see this get up and running. Though one has to be careful the working group doesn't turn into an elitist club where the working group protects their rights to keep but makes it near impossible for others to join. I guess what I am trying to say is that a lot of thought has to go into the selection of any such working groups so it doesn't turn into a few mates banding together and calling all the shots as some of these minority groups are very cliquey and spiteful towards other keepers in their same field.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I agree with Bushman. Lets look locally first and move up to those more controversial issues. It'll be much harder to garner support, let alone allow this association to be passed by government if we start spouting too much change that could be construed as potentially harmful to conservation efforts.

Ill be the one to put it out there though; this could quickly descend into a dark place. It seems that the majority of aims for this association are to lift that, abolish this, allow that; and that mightn't produce the best outlook for the future of this association.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with this idea, but Id hate to see it stall again because of conservationists and welfare groups claiming that were just trying to be greedy. There does need to be legislation in place, im afraid. Its unavoidable. The association should be about influencing the direction of rules, not throwing them all out the window.


On a side note.....I already suggested here that private keepers should be enlisted to help conservation efforts with various species. I was shot down because it was an apparently ridiculous idea.
I hope that people genuinely believe there's environmental good behind this association and aren't just promoting it because they stand to save a buck and get away with a lot more in the future. They're the wrong reasons.

I totally agree Sean - whatever the shape of any group that is built out of this becomes, it must be able to see that there are at least two sides to any narrative - there must be give and take, and a genuine understanding of all the issues on both sides of the fence. There will be some no-brainers like the totally idiotic "Farmer's Licence" and restrictions on breeding and disposal of progeny imposed by (then) CALM in WA, which simply defy logic, but especially with conservation concerns, a demonstrated preparedness to share common concerns would be essential. The older bureaucrats (many of whom have been holding the power for decades) will always be resistant to change, but there must eventually be a changing of the guard, hopefully they might be a bit more pragmatic.

Jamie

 

[Radar]

Once people realise they way things are heading they will support this movement. Many casual keepers need to be shown what they are in for if we don't band together, and how different things could be if we do.

 

[Slickturtle]

Hi all

Thanks for staying with me. Only a couple more posts to go. here is the lutes bunch of ideas. Many of these are obvious and won't come as a surprise. But the intention here is to cover off on as many functions of a national body that we can think of.

Benefits of National Unity

• Bring together organisations and individuals within the states and territories, with a common voice. Not merging with them, but linking with them.
• By forming links with as many state and territory herp groups as we can, we could become a vehicle for inter-communications between them all for the benefit of all. E.g. any articles, stories or other items of interest that we put on out web page could be copied to their web pages or blogs for general information and vice versa.
• Create a ‘strength in numbers’ scenario, which cannot be matched by individual states.
• Lobby state Governments towards streamlining or rationalising the administration of reptile keeping nation wide, e.g. some measures of standardisation in the current, extremely diverse reptile regulations.

Interface Professionals with Amateurs

• Provide a national opportunity for amateurs and professional herpetologists (academics, museum people and conservation biologists) to find common ground and exchange ideas and knowledge. Our planned web site is one vehicle for this - national conferences may be another.
• We would actively promote and where possible, assist herpetological research in Oz.

 

[-Peter]

...

Oh yes you should!

 

[Slickturtle]

Here is another angle on the national group. Once again, these are just notions and there is nothing here that is hard and fast. We don't even have a steering committee yet. But if you look at these points and make a comment for others to see and comment on - then already we all are groping our way to a solid beginning.

So how about national networking - I am mindful of those people in WA and Tasmania. I understand that they live in a very restrictive environment when it comes to reptile keeping. Maybe we could give them a hand.

Networking
• By forming links with as many state and territory herp groups as we can, we could become the center point vehicle for inter communications between them all. IE maybe each state herp group would appoint a committee member who would be tasked with keeping in touch with us and vice versa. We would be circulating matters of national interest to the appointed individuals who would then feed it into their club, depending on its relevance to them.
• We could provide an opportunity to collaborate with, and form links with, many other organisations that have common views e.g. the big NGO conservation bodies, zoos, wildlife parks and public aquaria.
• We could create a new generation of national conferences or symposiums which would be theme based. Proceedings would be posted on our web site for all to use. Academics would be encouraged to participate.
• At the moment there are differing views on issues of mutual concern between the Govt. wildlife policy makers, their compliance people and our type of people. Our national conferences could bring these people in to present their side of things. If we could form corridors of trust between them and us, - who knows what positives could flow from this – in many directions. Similarly, we could bring in speakers from A Class zoos and aquaria, as well as academics from the museum and university world. In other words, seeking to explore issues of common interest for mutual benefit. We could also advertise speakers and events being staged by other associations. We would actively support and promote ‘sister’ organisations like the APS forum, Scales and Tails, Expos and other like-minded groups.
• We would also support and promote veterinary companies, which actively seek to be reptile husbandry experts.