Australian Representative Herp Body

[Slickturtle]

Is it considerred a bad thing if RBB were able to survive in Darwin?

Nothing more than thinking out loud. We were just musing on why reptile occur where they do. I.E. what constrains reptiles to their natural range.

 

[glebo]

Hi all. What a difference a week makes! I am heartened to hear from so many of you. I have continually said this would be a long process and it is definitely looking that way. However, from discussions I have had with a couple of determined people in the past few days we now have a way forward that will give us (Greg, Jamie, Mike and I, and any others that become part of this preliminary team) the ability to speak directly with the Herp community, giving the herp community an avenue to speak confidentially and in confidence with us about what we are doing. It will allow the average herper to offer their support in confidence if necessary.
To the people with whom I have had a recent conversation I sincerely thank you. Our next big step is to set up a web site that incorporates much of the discussion in this and other threads about an Australia wide reptile advocacy body. It will take some time so please be patient but I think when we have it up and running and interactive we can take the next step. I can see it coming together and am very excited by that. There are a number of us that want to make things happen and my personal view is that I have spent a lifetime working on and with reptiles and I would like to give something back. That means sharing information that I and others have gleaned through many years of trial and error so you don’t have to make the same mistakes I have made. We are in this field of reptiles together so to have a combined voice is something I am passionate about, and I hope in time you all share that passion. Regards Gavin

 

[jacorin]

i'd like to help out to in some way....i don't have much in the way of experience with reptiles aside from owning a few. And time wise,i own/operate my own Take Away food shop here in Beresfield(near Newcastle NSW) but i'll do what i can to help.

Shane

 

[Bluetongue1]

On re-reading the last few pages I feel the need to comment. I was half way through constructing a post in response to that from delightfulpythons when longirostris beat me to. So I settled for a general statement that It is often difficult to know whether people are offering wisdom based on experience or jaded opinions due to past experience. I did not realise Pythoninfinite had posted before me. I now regret not having completed and posted my original response, which I have now done....

1. This first statment by delightful pythons could hardly be more negative. There is a chinese proveb that states... A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. This is a starting point and if DP read the entire thread then he would know that expansion into other areas has been discussed and taken on board. Irrespective, why take the negative attitude that "we have already shot ourselves in the foot". Why not take the positive stance of, OK, you have made a good start and to keep it going you need to expand by....."

2. Where does the statistic that "less than 1% of herpers frequent... forums" come from? What I do know is that a lot of people who aare otherwise uncontactable frequent forums. So with time, the word will be spread to other forums.

3. "Every one is an expert who knows better". That is absolutely not my personal experience with others on the forum. It does apply to a select few but as a generalisation I believe it to be straight-out incorrect.

4. The notion of a high court challenge has seen extremely varying cost quotes. Irrespective, it is may never be addressed due to the lack of certainty in winning due to the loop hole of it being utilised for wildlife, also a Commonwealth empowerment. No furthe comment.

5. Change does take years. As for it being redundant by that time I totally disagree. Sensible change is exactly that and better than no change, whenever it comes in. The fact that the herp scene has altered in that time has no effect on making progress in the governing regulations.

These were the suggested "starters" as to what to do....

1. Another derivise comment on "20 members off a forum not known for appreciating some of its most experienced members". I seriously have to wonder whether DP has the establishment of representative body at heart or is using the opportunity to criticize a forum he has personally fallen out with.

2. Yeah, great advice for 20 people - who may well be members of societies already, even though you are presuming they are not.

3."They need your support not 5 minute experts who keep a carpet python telling them they don't know what they are doing." Yet another another negative, jaded and entirely unnecessary qualification to what otherwise would have been a positive remark.

4. Great point!

5. "Less talk, more action." We are taking the first few tentative steps to determine if the suggested organisation is feasible, so that advice is premature.
What have the "cowboys" got to do with this?
You say "the reptile industry has the potential to be be business and with that we neglect the animals". The reptile hobby is already a big business. And on what basis do you make the statement about this resulting in neglecting animals and providing ammunition for the anti's. How does this contribute to assisting the establishment of a representative body?

Pythoninfinite, I am surprised you feel that the post provided by DP was acceptable and should be defended. I also noted that you were personally critical of Longirostris in his response. I have little doubt that he felt personally criticised, whether that be justified or not, but his response should have been assessed on its merits rather than any personal intonation, actual or inferred. As such, I believe he was well justified in most of the response comments that he passed.

His was definitely not an example of "bitchy infighting". Your comment about "develop a thicker skin" is one I have always found particularly offensive and thankfully is seldom used these days.
I did not see any loss of focus, just a justifiable problem with another person's post. Your knowing DP personally is likely to alter how you view what they wrote. Not knowing this person I responding to what I see written. We may need to agree to disagree on this on.

The bottom line is that people need to positive to help continue the forward momentum. Negative comments have a negative effect, such as its all too hard so what is the point. The point is that people can make it happen and the more who take that on board the more chance we have of reaching our ultimate goal.

Blue

 

[Pythoninfinite]

tropical species in cold climates require heating, cold climate species in tropical climates require cooling, its a no brainer really. there are many cooling systems available for many different applications just generally most keepers arent interested in spending the money or changing their ways from a wooden box with a heat light, kinda sad the way we still all follow the same old school methods of housing our animals

this hobby disregarding needs for ease of cleaning and cheaper power bills leaves ourselves open to be picked apart by surveys and studies etc as posted above, just look at the stink people put up over the caging requirements recently brought in to NSW which weren't unreasonable at all

Just to correct the record insitu, you oversimplify the matter of the "stink" you suggest the NSW Code of Practice caused amongst reptile keepers and those participating in the "consultation" sought by NSW NPWS.

1. There was a very significant problem with the matter and the process from the outset - NPWS was never able to provide us with the reasons for its implementation, at any time - no evidence of need whatsoever. It was clearly the brainchild of ideology - two individuals, one from DII and the other from NPWS, simply decided that this was something they could do to make their mark. When those with power, who oversee our activities, make arbitary decisions and can't objectively justify them, we have a big problem.

2. It became very obvious that the assurances of a transparent, consultative process were very hollow indeed. The dept wasn't interested in consultation, it had an agenda and may have been seeking support from some of the most knowledgeable herp keepers in the country. During the process, the committee involved itself in hundreds of hours of discussion in good faith - these individuals gave their time freely, and in my case, meetings involved travel from Port Macquarie - nine hours of my time and its consequent expenses on a dozen or so occasions.

3. When it became obvious that the invited consultative group was unanimously opposed to the infliction of the Code on keepers as law, rather than best recommendations, the invited committee was entirely shut out of any further discussion on the matter. And I mean totally... we had to resort to FOI to get an idea of where the Dept was going with the Code of Practice. When bureaucrats resort to secretive means to achieve their goals, despite assurances or "transparency" and "consultation," we're in dangerous waters. It means they can basically do whatever they like and, with the ear of a compliant Minister, enshrine into law anything that takes their fancy, justified or not. In this case, the laws were not, and thus are not, justified.

The "stink" was at least as much about the process as it was about the outcome. From where I stand, no government office should impose any legislation which affects a particular group of people, without clear evidence that it is justified. This was never done, and it infringes the rights of keepers across the State.

Jamie

- - - Updated - - -

On re-reading the last few pages I feel the need to comment. I was half way through constructing a post in response to that from delightfulpythons when longirostris beat me to. So I settled for a general statement that It is often difficult to know whether people are offering wisdom based on experience or jaded opinions due to past experience. I did not realise Pythoninfinite had posted before me. I now regret not having completed and posted my original response, which I have now done....

1. This first statment by delightful pythons could hardly be more negative. There is a chinese proveb that states... A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. This is a starting point and if DP read the entire thread then he would know that expansion into other areas has been discussed and taken on board. Irrespective, why take the negative attitude that "we have already shot ourselves in the foot". Why not take the positive stance of, OK, you have made a good start and to keep it going you need to expand by....."

2. Where does the statistic that "less than 1% of herpers frequent... forums" come from? What I do know is that a lot of people who aare otherwise uncontactable frequent forums. So with time, the word will be spread to other forums.

3. "Every one is an expert who knows better". That is absolutely not my personal experience with others on the forum. It does apply to a select few but as a generalisation I believe it to be straight-out incorrect.

4. The notion of a high court challenge has seen extremely varying cost quotes. Irrespective, it is may never be addressed due to the lack of certainty in winning due to the loop hole of it being utilised for wildlife, also a Commonwealth empowerment. No furthe comment.

5. Change does take years. As for it being redundant by that time I totally disagree. Sensible change is exactly that and better than no change, whenever it comes in. The fact that the herp scene has altered in that time has no effect on making progress in the governing regulations.

These were the suggested "starters" as to what to do....

1. Another derivise comment on "20 members off a forum not known for appreciating some of its most experienced members". I seriously have to wonder whether DP has the establishment of representative body at heart or is using the opportunity to criticize a forum he has personally fallen out with.

2. Yeah, great advice for 20 people - who may well be members of societies already, even though you are presuming they are not.

3."They need your support not 5 minute experts who keep a carpet python telling them they don't know what they are doing." Yet another another negative, jaded and entirely unnecessary qualification to what otherwise would have been a positive remark.

4. Great point!

5. "Less talk, more action." We are taking the first few tentative steps to determine if the suggested organisation is feasible, so that advice is premature.
What have the "cowboys" got to do with this?
You say "the reptile industry has the potential to be be business and with that we neglect the animals". The reptile hobby is already a big business. And on what basis do you make the statement about this resulting in neglecting animals and providing ammunition for the anti's. How does this contribute to assisting the establishment of a representative body?

Pythoninfinite, I am surprised you feel that the post provided by DP was acceptable and should be defended. I also noted that you were personally critical of Longirostris in his response. I have little doubt that he felt personally criticised, whether that be justified or not, but his response should have been assessed on its merits rather than any personal intonation, actual or inferred. As such, I believe he was well justified in most of the response comments that he passed.

His was definitely not an example of "bitchy infighting". Your comment about "develop a thicker skin" is one I have always found particularly offensive and thankfully is seldom used these days.
I did not see any loss of focus, just a justifiable problem with another person's post. Your knowing DP personally is likely to alter how you view what they wrote. Not knowing this person I responding to what I see written. We may need to agree to disagree on this on.

The bottom line is that people need to positive to help continue the forward momentum. Negative comments have a negative effect, such as its all too hard so what is the point. The point is that people can make it happen and the more who take that on board the more chance we have of reaching our ultimate goal.

Blue

Mike, you need to develop a thicker skin mate. Longirostris and I can discuss whatever we may need to without your summary assessments and judgements about what may or may not be implicit in what we write - you do this frequently and it is extremely irritating. I haven't bothered to re read my post to longirostris, but I certainly did not mean to "personalise" it. I'm sure that longirostris is a perfectly fine fellow/girl despite my challenge to what he/she said. I reserve the right to engage in any discussion with members here without your involvement or approval. Unlike you, most (probably all) of the respondents to this thread actually keep reptiles and speak from experience, rather than crawl the web looking for info. It brings into focus a comment I made earlier in this thread - face-to-face contact is far more productive than electronic exchange - you might find that bp has a lot to offer if you met him personally.

Any success that comes out of this discussion will be a result of robust exchange of ideas - we are all of the view that we need good advocacy, and we probably all have something to contribute.

Your own methods of managing debate here are authoritarian and very often patronising.

Jamie

 

[zulu]

Jamie you know that the code of practice was response to the animal welfare concerns of selling reptiles in petshops. Jeff Hardy had flagged all of this years back and it was not popular so it was put on the back burner.
Simply all that NPWS is doing is folowing the study that they had done years back by a contracted biologist .
Presume the next step is the selling of some class 2 species and widening of class ones in pet stores once the first phase is completed.

 

[champagne]

....

- - - Updated - - -

Just to correct the record insitu, you oversimplify the matter of the "stink" you suggest the NSW Code of Practice caused amongst reptile keepers and those participating in the "consultation" sought by NSW NPWS.

1. There was a very significant problem with the matter and the process from the outset - NPWS was never able to provide us with the reasons for its implementation, at any time - no evidence of need whatsoever. It was clearly the brainchild of ideology - two individuals, one from DII and the other from NPWS, simply decided that this was something they could do to make their mark. When those with power, who oversee our activities, make arbitary decisions and can't objectively justify them, we have a big problem.

2. It became very obvious that the assurances of a transparent, consultative process were very hollow indeed. The dept wasn't interested in consultation, it had an agenda and may have been seeking support from some of the most knowledgeable herp keepers in the country. During the process, the committee involved itself in hundreds of hours of discussion in good faith - these individuals gave their time freely, and in my case, meetings involved travel from Port Macquarie - nine hours of my time and its consequent expenses on a dozen or so occasions.

3. When it became obvious that the invited consultative group was unanimously opposed to the infliction of the Code on keepers as law, rather than best recommendations, the invited committee was entirely shut out of any further discussion on the matter. And I mean totally... we had to resort to FOI to get an idea of where the Dept was going with the Code of Practice. When bureaucrats resort to secretive means to achieve their goals, despite assurances or "transparency" and "consultation," we're in dangerous waters. It means they can basically do whatever they like and, with the ear of a compliant Minister, enshrine into law anything that takes their fancy, justified or not. In this case, the laws were not, and thus are not, justified.

The "stink" was at least as much about the process as it was about the outcome. From where I stand, no government office should impose any legislation which affects a particular group of people, without clear evidence that it is justified. This was never done, and it infringes the rights of keepers across the State.

Jamie

- - - Updated - - -



Mike, you need to develop a thicker skin mate. Longirostris and I can discuss whatever we may need to without your summary assessments and judgements about what may or may not be implicit in what we write - you do this frequently and it is extremely irritating. I haven't bothered to re read my post to longirostris, but I certainly did not mean to "personalise" it. I'm sure that longirostris is a perfectly fine fellow/girl despite my challenge to what he/she said. I reserve the right to engage in any discussion with members here without your involvement or approval. Unlike you, most (probably all) of the respondents to this thread actually keep reptiles and speak from experience, rather than crawl the web looking for info. It brings into focus a comment I made earlier in this thread - face-to-face contact is far more productive than electronic exchange - you might find that bp has a lot to offer if you met him personally.

Any success that comes out of this discussion will be a result of robust exchange of ideas - we are all of the view that we need good advocacy, and we probably all have something to contribute.

Your own methods of managing debate here are authoritarian and very often patronising.

Jamie

when the people trying to get this off the ground are acting like this over bs comments, what chance does it really have?

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Col, it's interesting that the selling of reptiles in petshops and the requirements petshops needed to meet were never mentioned at our meetings with NPWS, not even once, and the discussions they were having with the pet shop people, during the same period, were not alluded to, even once. It was as though there were two parallel universes, with not even the smallest area of crossover. I have no idea why there was no possibility for mutual exchange, but the two streams were kept entirely separate. Only because of external connections were we aware that there were other matters being developed. I don't believe that any work done previously by a contracted biologist was used as a reference point by NPWS, if it was it was never mentioned to us.

The Dept moves in mysterious ways...

Jamie

 

[marcus0002]

I see this all too often on this forum. People get easily offended over nothing. It is definitely one factor in why people are migrating over to facebook groups. If this group is going to get off the ground a lot of people need to harden up and get on with the job.

 

[insitu]

Of course i over simplified it Jamie, Its APS, its not worth my time trying to complicate it so i gave a general statement to push forward a general point, which was we need to lift our game, if that means the authorities need to make boundaries for us to follow then so be it, gone are the days where you kept elephants in small iron cells and parrots in tiny cages yet when someone has a snake that wont eat i see 100 posts of "take it out of its enclosure, put it in a click clack with paper and a cardboard hide and put it in the dark on a heat mat"

lets break that down to someone outside the hobbys view

put it in a small plastic tupperware container
give it nothing to crawl on
throw in a toilet roll
and stuff it in a dark corner away from natural light

now by all means i keep a lot of my smaller snakes in small plastic containers but i use substrates depending on the species im keeping and the outcome i want it to do, i have rocks branches and most of the stuff you use in a well decorated display enclosure inside a tiny click clack, they have access to a photo period and i find if i change one to paper and a toilet roll they stop feeding, the culture of this hobby has been built on cheap easy and space efficient practices not whats best for the animal and my point was we need to raise the bar of what we are doing, if that means we are given rules and can no longer do what ever we decide we want too, then at this point i only see it as a good thing

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Marcus and champagne, I've been around herpers for long enough to have developed the requisite thick skin, and I never engage in private messaging with members who want to be aggressive or troublesome - ALL the matters I discuss and have opinions about are here on the forum for all to see. That serves to keep me grounded. I am ALWAYS happy to be corrected when in error, and I'm also very happy to say "I don't know..." when it's appropriate. Not that it is very often... lol... that was a joke !

Marcus, with all due respect, I think Facebook has more potential to be an extremely destructive force in many people's lives, given the number of youngsters who harm themselves or even take their own lives because of bullying etc. But I'm sure that well managed social media of all sorts, even APS, can have a place in people's lives. I'm not a Facebook person simply because I don't have enough time to spend on these things.

Jamie

 

[Wild~Touch]

With respect

The Dept moves in mysterious ways...

In all reality ... they just protect the multi million dollar business that pet shops bring.....whether they sell reptiles or not.

It is all about the evil dollar nothing more nothing less .. take a look at what they are allowing to happen in the Reef area

 

[zulu]

Col, it's interesting that the selling of reptiles in petshops and the requirements petshops needed to meet were never mentioned at our meetings with NPWS, not even once, and the discussions they were having with the pet shop people, during the same period, were not alluded to, even once. It was as though there were two parallel universes, with not even the smallest area of crossover. I have no idea why there was no possibility for mutual exchange, but the two streams were kept entirely separate. Only because of external connections were we aware that there were other matters being developed. I don't believe that any work done previously by a contracted biologist was used as a reference point by NPWS, if it was it was never mentioned to us.

The Dept moves in mysterious ways...

Jamie

What did you think they was putting together the code for? It was public knowlege that they needed to implemented the code before the petshops in NSW could sell.
Even Jeff Hardy addressed the issue on aussie pythons several years back ,from memory i think the biologist was Miranda Gotto ? some years back ,was on the forums.
Need to get you a military uniform a pair of handcuffs so they take notice ,private helicopter so when you land outside the hurstville office rangers will go juicy and flail about the place on your arrival .

 

[insitu]

hahahaha and dark shades, dont forget the dark shades or no one will take you seriously

 

[Pythoninfinite]

What did you think they was putting together the code for? It was public knowlege that they needed to implemented the code before the petshops in NSW could sell.
Even Jeff Hardy addressed the issue on aussie pythons several years back ,from memory i think the biologist was Miranda Gotto ? some years back ,was on the forums.
Need to get you a military uniform a pair of handcuffs so they take notice ,private helicopter so when you land outside the hurstville office rangers will go juicy and flail about the place on your arrival .

Fair go Col - there were 11 others involved directly as well, so it wasn't just me lol! I like the idea of a helicopter though, it would have cut down my transit time from Port Macquarie, but I guess it's a bit late for that now ! Yes, Miranda was involved, but as leader of the first meetings along with Brendan Neilly. Her role as a biologist was never mentioned. Jeff Hardy was long gone, his influence and his legacy had been wiped from the record pretty much by then. (He had retired and joined the enemy - becoming a reptile keeper himself...).

Jamie

- - - Updated - - -

hahahaha and dark shades, dont forget the dark shades or no one will take you seriously

Do people take me seriously now? Maybe it's because I don't wear dark glasses...

J

 

[Waterrat]

Facebook v Forums

I am one of many deserters from all forums and I am enjoying many meaningful discussions on FB without being mocked and ridiculed like here. Replace the aliases with real names and things will change, the keyboard warriors will loose their protective shields.

Are there any positive replies / suggestions to Gavin's last post? Anybody in capital cities ready to stand up and take an active role in representing their state? Lets get back on the track.

Michael

 

[zulu]

Fair go Col - there were 11 others involved directly as well, so it wasn't just me lol! I like the idea of a helicopter though, it would have cut down my transit time from Port Macquarie, but I guess it's a bit late for that now ! Yes, Miranda was involved, but as leader of the first meetings along with Brendan Neilly. Her role as a biologist was never mentioned. Jeff Hardy was long gone, his influence and his legacy had been wiped from the record pretty much by then. (He had retired and joined the enemy - becoming a reptile keeper himself...).

Jamie

- - - Updated - - -



Do people take me seriously now? Maybe it's because I don't wear dark glasses...

J

Righto ,so she was there with brendan neily ,she was there because she was the brains behind it and the implementaion of the petshop process wasnt any secret as she was commissioned by NPWS.
You know as well as i do and its still on the old threads aussie pythons with Jeff Hardy (and you replied in the threads also)/ That jeff in answers to a thread about petshops in NSW stated that the animal welfare concerns would have to be addressed first .
No good making large excessively complicated posts if your not shooting straight .

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I'm not doubting you for a minute Col, but when this discussion process started with the so-called advisory group, Jeff Hardy was long gone from NPWS, I only moved to NSW in 2005 and it was at least 2-3 years before I found my feet, and then I was only included in the advisory group because I was vice-president of the North Coast Herp Group at the time. I had very little knowledge of NSW herp politics then. Being a long-term local, you'd have a far better idea of the chronology of all these things and I'm sure you're better networked than I was or ever will be up here on the mid-north coast.

Before the first meeting, I'd never even heard of Brendan Neilly or Miranda Whatever her name is... and Daniel Van Dyk - another contracted individual on a mission. I wasn't involved in the pet-shop thing at all, either as its own entity or in conjunction with the general keeper's Code of Practice. Was Jeff Hardy writng as an NPWS officer or a private individual at the time? But I can show you the stuff we got through FOI that very clearly indicates that the driving force behind the whole "putting it into law" thing was an individual in the Dept of Industry and Investment - when NPWS was about to agree to the Code being a set of recommendations, he dumped on them from a great height, telling them in no uncertain terms that the whole reason for the existence of the Code was to make it enforceable in a court of law and to facilitate successful prosecutions.

Sorry if I'm sounding as vague as Arthur Sinodinos at the moment, but I think you're crediting me with more knowledge than I actually have, but I'll be happy to be directed to the threads on APS where all this happened to refresh my memory. I don't need to defend myself because I'm only revisiting things as I remember them to be at the time. I don't think my posts have been excessively complicated - just a recollection of events as I knew them. I'm sure Peter Harlow, Glenn Shea, John Weigel, Anthony Stimson, Mike Duncan, Warwick Denshire and the others will concur with my recollection, but I can't really speak for them. Happy to be corrected though...

I think this matter has been done to death, but for some reason I feel like you're trying to catch me out Col. I have no agenda beyond relating our experience with NPWS from a negotiating perspective - it was dismal and the NPWS individuals proved themselves to be very untrustworthy.

Jamie

 

[shamat]

I have no knowledge about the historical events. I am relatively new to owning reptiles and certainly not qualified to comment on all the back and forth I have seen in this thread.

This being said, I am highly passionate about many things related to this thread, herps and politics included. As such, I feel compelled to express a concern about the sheer amount of energy and time spent looking backwards and very little constructive comment from the (bulk of the)movement around moving forward.

I know we must understand past events in order to plan for the future, but people, come on.... be aware of past events but do not waste energy trivialising it. If we had the same passion in moving forward as a UNIFIED FRONT for the better of all Herp lovers - keepers, breeder, pet shops and even the kids who dream of one day owing a reptile. - I believe we would be in a better place. Its not all about US.

I'm sorry if I've offend and am perpetrated fro negative comments to pursue if people feel compelled to do so. Its all OK, I've already got the "thick skin".

Also, I'd like to publicly thank those of you who have tried to get this off the ground for so long... it is indeed a difficult and selfless course to navigate.

Mat

Sent from my Surface Pro 2 using Tapatalk

 

[glebo]

Maybe this is as good a time as any to ask what we should be called. Please come up with some names and acronyms that will identify and define who we are and what we do. I agree with Mat, we need to be looking forward and work as a team to achieve something. I know many of you will ask 'well what is that we will do?' and may need this answered before you can decide on a name. I would suggest that it is a body that will look at many aspects of the amateur reptile/herp hobby and try to give them all a voice at an Australia wide level when it comes to anything connected with them such as permits, conservation, keeping, advocacy at national level, research, pet industry, conduct and many other yet to be mentioned guiding topics. However, please dont get hung up on what it will or wont do right now, there is plenty of time to formulate a list and prioritise it. At his stage I think we just need a suitable name so we can put together a suitable and dedicated web site from which we can move toward these other attributes. If you have an idea and want it to remain confidential please PM me, but if you dont mind sharing then by all means come up with something and let us all see it. The whole idea is for US to have a voice and I tend to be a team player and want you all on that team so feel free to have a go. Cheers
Gavin