blue tounge lizard breeding

[bump73]

I have never seen nor heard about an Eastern blue tongue cross shingleback. I was under the impression that shinglebacks were fussy breeders and only breed with unrelated individuals of their own species?

There's a pic of one on the bluetongueskinks.net page in the care sheet section ( i think). It actually looks quite nice and i believe it was found in the wild. I'm not condoning cross breeding just saying it does occur in the wild...

Ben

 

[Reptilian66]

I have never seen nor heard about an Eastern blue tongue cross shingleback. I was under the impression that shinglebacks were fussy breeders and only breed with unrelated individuals of their own species?

l have seen 2 adult Cross Shingleback and Eastern Blue-Tongue Lizard's on display at the Adelaide Museum between 1993 - 1996, they were originally collected from the wild in the early 1990's.

Here is 2 photo's to prove it, but l warn everyone out there, its illegal to cross breed (Shingleback's-with any specie's of Blue-Tongue Lizard's.

Don't even think about doing it with any kept in captivity, and denying it was done on purpose, just to create a new hybrid so you can get alot more money.

 

[notechistiger]

Thanks bump73 and Reptilian66. That's very interesting.

 

[horsesrule]

No its not possible to breed different Sub-Species of Blue-Tongue Lizard's, in fact its illegal to do this if you don't believe me contact your local Wildlife Authority in your state and ask them if you can or cannot do it, l bet they will tell you its illegal to cross breed Sub-Species of any Reptile's.

Its not illegal to cross blue tongue species and i have no idea where on earth you came up with that idea.

I have seen many people do it and if they want to fair enough no dount these animals would cross breed in the wild where populations border each other.

 

[horsesrule]

Also further to this

If it is illegal, Please show the forum and me what law and what legislation this falls under?

For example Crimes Act??

There is no such law that i am aware off.

If you can provide proof of the law and the relevant statutory act and the penalty for breaking the law im happy to accept i was wrong if you cant i maintain i am right.

 

[bump73]

Also further to this

If it is illegal, Please show the forum and me what law and what legislation this falls under?

For example Crimes Act??

There is no such law that i am aware off.

If you can provide proof of the law and the relevant statutory act and the penalty for breaking the law im happy to accept i was wrong if you cant i maintain i am right.

Posted by DEC in another thread....

QLD 92 Restriction on breeding etc. hybrids of protected animals
(1) A person must not—
(a) knowingly breed a hybrid or mutation of a protected
animal; or
(b) abandon a hybrid or mutation of a protected animal in
the wild;
other than under a regulation or exemption under a regulation.
Maximum penalty—165 penalty units.
(2) A person must not release a hybrid or mutation of a protected
animal into the wild other than under a conservation plan for
the protected animal.
Maximum penalty—165 penalty units or 1 year’s

I believe QLD is the only state that actually has legislation that would cover this. In VIC you can do it if they are known to hybridise in the wild and there is nothing in NSW to stop you:? Not sure on other states though....

Ben

 

[horsesrule]

Thanks for that post thats interesing, as i suspected i was correct about Victoria.

Also it could be argued if you housed your blue tongues together lets say for example in an outdoor pit and they bred naturally without you intentionally or knowingly doing this then that would not be illegal.

The key is the wording of any law, in QLD as you pointed out it is illegal to "knowingly breed a hybrid or mutation of a protected animal"

As long as you dont intentionally cross breed you dont commint a crime as there was no intent.

Many people house different blue tongue species together so i would suspect unless someone in Qld was intentionally breeding them with the intent to sell or advertising for example eastern cross central they would struggle to make a case to prosecute.

 

[Reptilian66]

As stated under the Wildlife Regulations 2002 ACT, which is manage by the Department of Sustainability and Environment here in Victoria.

Inter-Breeding of wildlife.
(1) A person must not permit different taxa of wildlife to inter-breed unless those taxa of wildlife are known
to inter-breed in the wild.
Penalty: 20 penalty units.
(2) A person must not sell or dispose of cross-breeds of wildlife unless those cross-breeds are known to
accur in the wild.
Penalty: 20 penalty units.
(3) Nothing in this regulation applies to a person who inter-breed the taxa of wildlife listed in Parts A and C
of Schedule 6 with other taxa of wildlife listed in Parts A and C of Schedule 6 and who sells or
disposes of the resultant cross-breeds.
Schedule 6 Part A- Pheasants-all taxa.
Partridge-all taxa.
European/Japanese Quail.
Californian Quail.
Schedule 6 Part C- Fellow Deer.
Chital.
Hog Deer.
Rusa Deer,
Red Deer,
Wapiti Deer.
Sambar.

Here you can now see that its illegal to cross-breed Reptile's in captivity in Victoria, if you want to find out more information on cross-breeding of Reptile's in Victoria, you should contact the Permit Section during business hours on 136186, and ask to speak to (Mr Ron Waters) who is the senior wildlife officer, that can answer any questions you may have.

Cheers,

Les.

 

[horsesrule]

"(1) A person must not permit different taxa of wildlife to inter-breed unless those taxa of wildlife are known
to inter-breed in the wild."


Blue tongues inter breed in the wild therefor it is LEGAL.


Thank you though for the info i had no idea of that law until i seen it and looked it up myself.

I accept you are correct that inter breeding some species of animals in Victoria is illegal. However as stated if it is known to happen in the wild it is legal. So blue tongues are exempt.

 

[horsesrule]

Out of curiosity 20 penalty units is what ? The act doesnt specify.

So is that a fine and if so how much ? What do the 20 units actually convert into as far as penaltys?

 

[Reptilian66]

Horsesrule,
there is only 3 specie's of Blue-Tongue's found in Victoria, and they a the Eastern Blue-Tongue-Western Blue-Tongue-Blotched Blue-Tongue, you say they inter-breed in the wild together, have you got any proof or evidence of these 3 Specie's of Blue-Tongue mating together in the wild, and producing offspring, can you provide a photo of any found in the wild, name of location-time and date and what specie's were found.
Unless you can provide proof you don't know what your talking about, and don't give false information to newcomers to the herp scene, by saying its legal to cross-breed Reptile's in captivity.

lf you want to know what do the 20 units convert into as far as penalty's go, contact the DSE on 136186, they will let you know how much it is as a fine.

 

[horsesrule]

Horsesrule,
there is only 3 specie's of Blue-Tongue's found in Victoria, and they a the Eastern Blue-Tongue-Western Blue-Tongue-Blotched Blue-Tongue, you say they inter-breed in the wild together, have you got any proof or evidence of these 3 Specie's of Blue-Tongue mating together in the wild, and producing offspring, can you provide a photo of any found in the wild, name of location-time and date and what specie's were found.
Unless you can provide proof you don't know what your talking about, and don't give false information to newcomers to the herp scene, by saying its legal to cross-breed Reptile's in captivity.

lf you want to know what do the 20 units convert into as far as penalty's go, contact the DSE on 136186, they will let you know how much it is as a fine.

Blotch blue tongues and eastern blue tongues commonly inter breed where areas overlap.

I myself have had them breed together whilst having them housed in a pit outside.

I know someone at the moment who has a female blotch blue tongue in with about 6 eastern blue tongues and she is pregnant.

So it happens easily and commonly.

 

[horsesrule]

Also you yourself posted photos of a shingleback/ stumpy cross blue tongue which occured naturally in the wild.

The law you posted states:

"(1) A person must not permit different taxa of wildlife to inter-breed unless those taxa of wildlife are known to inter-breed in the wild."


Therefor if someone was to interbreed for example a shingleback with a blue tongue it would be legal as they are known to interbreed in the wild.

Its pretty clear in the wording.

 

[Rocket]

Just to clarify for those in SA, it is illegal in SA to cross breed, interbreed and simply breed to create unnatural species/ subspecies.

It is as simple as that and I believe that people that happily try to bring something that is unnatural and unwanted into captivity through purposeful breeding of compatible yet different species genetics is downright pathetic. People need to preserve the integrity and genetics of the available bloodlines in captivity in Australia. Of course, cross breeding of specific bloodlines for the purpose of creating new morphs and patterns is acceptible but it should not be taken to ridiculous extremes by breeding completely different species. Just because something is of the same genus doesn't give anybody the right to readily cross breed them just for fun or financial gain, its just desperate and pathetic.

Therefore, I am with Reptilian66 on this issue.

 

[horsesrule]

Just to clarify for those in SA, it is illegal in SA to cross breed, interbreed and simply breed to create unnatural species/ subspecies.

It is as simple as that and I believe that people that happily try to bring something that is unnatural and unwanted into captivity through purposeful breeding of compatible yet different species genetics is downright pathetic. People need to preserve the integrity and genetics of the available bloodlines in captivity in Australia. Of course, cross breeding of specific bloodlines for the purpose of creating new morphs and patterns is acceptible but it should not be taken to ridiculous extremes by breeding completely different species. Just because something is of the same genus doesn't give anybody the right to readily cross breed them just for fun or financial gain, its just desperate and pathetic.

Therefore, I am with Reptilian66 on this issue.

Im with you both also.

I dont agree in crossing but some species it happens naturally a good example of this is eastern and blotch blue tongues.

I had it happen to me over 10 years ago but i never planned it.

It is a lot more common in blue tongues that many realise.

 

[Reptilian66]

The 2 photo's l posted on this thread showing the hybrid Shingleback-Eastern Blue-Tongue Lizard's, was only a one of discovery from the wild, know more have been found since they were discover in the earlly 90's.

Keeping them all caged together in captivity they don't have any choice but to inter-breed, where in the wild they can get away from each other if they want to.

The way l see things heading in the herp scene, we will oneday have all these hybrids in captivity, that we don't know what they are or where they come from natually in the wild, and will not be pure unrelated.

Because of keepers like yourself who don't care one bit in keeping them all the same Sub-Specie's, and just think of the Money you can get by creating a new colour phase or hybrids.

Let me tell you one thing mate l won't be purchasing any Reptile's from you or anyone that does cross-breeding with Reptile's, l'm lucky that l can get what l want from Zoo's or on permit from the wild, so l know they a pure and unrelated and where they come from natually in the wild.

 

[horsesrule]

The 2 photo's l posted on this thread showing the hybrid Shingleback-Eastern Blue-Tongue Lizard's, was only a one of discovery from the wild, know more have been found since they were discover in the earlly 90's.

Keeping them all caged together in captivity they don't have any choice but to inter-breed, where in the wild they can get away from each other if they want to.

The way l see things heading in the herp scene, we will oneday have all these hybrids in captivity, that we don't know what they are or where they come from natually in the wild, and will not be pure unrelated.

Because of keepers like yourself who don't care one bit in keeping them all the same Sub-Specie's, and just think of the Money you can get by creating a new colour phase or hybrids.

Let me tell you one thing mate l won't be purchasing any Reptile's from you or anyone that does cross-breeding with Reptile's, l'm lucky that l can get what l want from Zoo's or on permit from the wild, so l know they a pure and unrelated and where they come from natually in the wild.

I dont breed to sell so i make no money my friend, so you are wrong there if i breed i keep them myself. I dont care about new color phases or hybrids either.

Eastern blue tongues and blotched blue tongues can be found in the same areas as they overlap keeping them together is common practice if they interbreed its no big deal in my book. They dont look much different some have spots some stripes some a little of each.

I dont support cross breeding but eastern and blotch blue tongues breeding together i have no problem with there both common and neither are on licence.

 

[Reptilian66]

l'm with you Rocket in regards to cross-breeding, where those that do it don't either care or give a dam, about the future of our Reptile's here in Australia, and just do it to create a new color morphs and for financial gain.

Horsesrule just because Eastern and Blotched Blue-Tongue's come into contact with each other in the wild, that dose not mean they will inter-breed in anyway,where people like yourself who lock them up in the same enclosure, instead of keeping them seperate from each other in captivity, they have know choice but to inter-breed, so if you don't support cross-breeding why don't you keep your Eastern and Blotched Blue-Tongue's seperate from each other in different enclosures so they don't get to inter-breed in captivity.

 

[horsesrule]

I used to have a huge pit outside and in it there was stumpys, eastern blue tongues, blotch blueys, and some bearded dragons.

All these animals usually overlap in areas and sorry but its not always feasable or practical to seperate blotch blue tongues from eastern blue tongues especially if you are using outdoor pits.

 

[Kirby]

interesting, i dont see a problem with certain hybridising with blueys. if they keep their linage known, the shingleXeastern is interesting.. a little odd, but interesting..