Breeding Debate

[Wookie]

I see thread after thread where inexperienced keepers are asking about breeding requirements and are repeatedly told not to breed for the good of the market by more experienced breeders. Though this may be correct, it seems wrong to discourage new keepers from breeding, while the old hats continue to breed their own stock. I think if people are aware the difficulty they may go through trying to sell garden variety animals, they are more than welcome to breed their pets because I'm sure after losing money and time while stressing to sell offspring they won't want to breed again. This way they are still retaining the experience and joy of breeding. It seems very unfair to frag a keeper for breeding when it was the old hats who have done their part (along with new breeders) to flood the market each year. Please don't get me wrong, many inexperienced keepers post ridiculously retarded questions and definitely should not breed, though some are simply very keen for the experience. And I'm also not saying long time breeders are bad, they have contributed a lot to the hobby, developed and refined many traits or morphs and made snakes much cheaper for me to buy today .

Everybody feel free to contribute. Pros/cons of breeding in the current market

 

[saximus]

I agree entirely. I asked a similar question in one of these debate treads. Basically the old hat guys said they aren't against relative newbies having a go as long as they are aware of the possible (probable) difficulties. Unfortunately though most people don't seem to understand this and just assume they will breed with no issues and makes millions

 

[Jason]

Pros: exciting, educational, interesting etc
Cons: time, money, time, frustration, time, failures, difficulties, time etc

I think every keen, passionate keeper should have a go at breeding herps if the interest, time and dedication is there. It's very rewarding and you really do learn a lot about your animals. Those that say dont do it for the market imo are just trying to keep it to themselves! there are a lot of greedy 'experienced' breeders out there that love lining their pockets.
It's great to hear some breeders claiming the market is saturated (which i do believe has slowed a fair bit) and that there is to many people breeding etc and yet they still try for a dozen clutches a season... hypocrites

 

[licky]

Why do you think every time someone asks where to get "this or that" everybody says "buy from an experienced breeder".
Alot of big breeders are fuming because their prized animals dont go for the same big dollars as they used to, everybody see's the money to be made then flood the "market".
The big breeders are all greedy in my opinion. Once they sell there animals to newbs, they tell them different feeding routines to what they use e.g big breeders are power feeders, newbs are scared into "normal" feeding routines.
Big breeders love to add a title to a animal to show its better then the competition and then jack up the price.
Greed

 

[Wally]

Perhaps more experienced breeders are aware of what goes into looking after multitudes of hatchies. I would suggest to any first time breeder to consider a reptile that produces small numbers of offspring to begin with.

The welfare of the reptiles must be considered above all else.

 

[whyme]

Why do you think every time someone asks where to get "this or that" everybody says "buy from an experienced breeder".
Alot of big breeders are fuming because their prized animals dont go for the same big dollars as they used to, everybody see's the money to be made then flood the "market".
The big breeders are all greedy in my opinion. Once they sell there animals to newbs, they tell them different feeding routines to what they use e.g big breeders are power feeders, newbs are scared into "normal" feeding routines.
Big breeders love to add a title to a animal to show its better then the competition and then jack up the price.
Greed

First of all, what do you classify as a big breeder? I breed a few reps each year and they are quality animals. I feed large food items but do not power feed, I don't think, and I always tell the purchaser exactly what the animal has been fed, and when. I've also purchased off some REPUTABLE, not big breeders and have never had a problem. It's not about scaring "newbs" or jackin' up prices. Quality animals, from quality lines, deserve quality dollars. A newbie with a hatchie GTP pair is not going to breed 'em in the near future, if ever. I, personally am not worried about the "newbie situation", and totally encourage giving breeding a go if the conditions are right. You usually find they freak when they get a clutch and the hatchies go back to the breeder anyway

 

[moosenoose]

Call me selfish, but I choose not to breed anything Who cares what anyone else thinks? I know I don't!

 

[Wookie]

Perhaps more experienced breeders are aware of what goes into looking after multitudes of hatchies. I would suggest to any first time breeder to consider a reptile that produces small numbers of offspring to begin with.

The welfare of the reptiles must be considered above all else.

I agree 100%. And that has nothing to do with the market.

Call me selfish, but I choose not to breed anything Who cares what anyone else thinks? I know I don't!

How dare you moose!

 

[reptilife]

Call me selfish, but I choose not to breed anything Who cares what anyone else thinks? I know I don't!

Agreed... all sounds like too much hard work!!!

 

[Khagan]

I actually like the current market, while yeah i even lost out myself selling, it's great for the hobby itself to be a buyers market. I'm fine with morphs and certain species like GTPs being high end animals and demanding a price tag suiting, but i believe your average run of the mill entry level animal should be at an affordable price for everyone.

 

[jham66]

There is a slight benefit to the market when many "amateurs" want to start breeding. If I want one display snake I would only buy one snake; if I want to breed I need at least two snakes. If I really want to get started I will buy a breeding trio, maybe I will not want to put all my eggs in one basket so I will buy a breeding trio in two separate species.......

 

[Ramsayi]

Hmmmmmmmm bag out the breeders.Where do you think most of the info on breeding reptiles that you guys have access to came from in the first place?

 

[solar 17]

Why do you think every time someone asks where to get "this or that" everybody says "buy from an experienced breeder".
Alot of big breeders are fuming because their prized animals dont go for the same big dollars as they used to, everybody see's the money to be made then flood the "market".
The big breeders are all greedy in my opinion. Once they sell there animals to newbs, they tell them different feeding routines to what they use e.g big breeders are power feeders, newbs are scared into "normal" feeding routines.
Big breeders love to add a title to a animal to show its better then the competition and then jack up the price.
Greed

Personally l feel this post is pretty baseless short on facts and figures on which you could show some evidence particularly in my case since you said "all" long term big breeders....solar 17 [Baden]

 

[saximus]

This isn't about bagging out breeders. It is about certain breeders who are against new people getting into it just because they apparently don't want extra "competition". So they say the market is flooded and discourage people while still breeding numerous clutches a year themselves. I get a lot of my info from Mike Swan's book which I noticed has contributions from a number of members on here. For that I am very thankful. I am not thankful for those who aren't interested in offering help but instead criticise anyone wanting to try it for themselves.

 

[Parko]

The problem is terms like ''reputable breeders'', what is a reputable breeder? To me somebody who breeds healthy animals and is fair in their dealings and generous in their after sales advice is reputable. To me somebody who breeds and sells snakes that have health and neuro issues is irreputable regardless of how many snakes they have churned out or how pretty they are. These are the people who should be discouraged from ''flooding'' the market.

 

[AUSHERP]

I'm sick of the same old questions that these said newbs are asking "what snake should i breed to make money" "which snake is the most valuable" "what is easy to breed with good return" Most of todays big breeders got there through a passion for reptiles not a hunger for money. These sort of questions really rub me the wrong way, breeding is not being discouraged, ignorant money hungry newbs with no desire to make contribution beyond stupid questions are being discouraged. This forum is for reptile lovers/keepers and we are a community. These newcomers put themselves on the outter immediately by asking these sort of question, their intentions are clear and unliked by most, if you want to get rich quick, go do a crappy seminar and invest in online sales schemes.

AUSHERP

 

[waruikazi]

This isn't about bagging out breeders. It is about certain breeders who are against new people getting into it just because they apparently don't want extra "competition". So they say the market is flooded and discourage people while still breeding numerous clutches a year themselves. I get a lot of my info from Mike Swan's book which I noticed has contributions from a number of members on here. For that I am very thankful. I am not thankful for those who aren't interested in offering help but instead criticise anyone wanting to try it for themselves.

I don't think i've seen the hypocrasy you talk about, who are these certain breeders?

What i have seen in the past is alot of 'big breeders' making it clear that there is no money in it and more recently pointing out that backyard breeders will have trouble moving on large numbers of average looking animals.

My own view on newbs breeding is that it seems most think that it makes them an experienced keeper. I don't think it does.

 

[MonitorMayhem]

interesting

 

[saximus]

I don't think i've seen the hypocrasy you talk about, who are these certain breeders?

What i have seen in the past is alot of 'big breeders' making it clear that there is no money in it and more recently pointing out that backyard breeders will have trouble moving on large numbers of average looking animals.

My own view on newbs breeding is that it seems most think that it makes them an experienced keeper. I don't think it does.

Hmmm maybe I've just misinterpreted some of the posts I've seen then. I guess I just get a generally negative feeling from a lot of threads about new breeders. Maybe that is just because most of them start with "How do I breed snakes? I want to make millions" though.
I was actually going to quote you on that last point Gordo. I remembered you writing something similar but couldn't find where you wrote it. I agree breeding doesn't make you an instant expert but I do think it's a very big step in the learning process, if you're ready for it.

 

[hugsta]

The problem is terms like ''reputable breeders'', what is a reputable breeder? To me somebody who breeds healthy animals and is fair in their dealings and generous in their after sales advice is reputable.

I agree, I don't think being reputable has anything to do with the volume of animals your breed. Experience also comes in many forms in the reptile hobby, experienced in getting stuborn hatchies to feed, getting olives etc to breed, probing/popping hatcies, getting enclosure setups right, recognising when your animals aren't acting right, when there is a need for veterinary care, etc etc etc. Breeding a pair of macs in your first year is no where near being experienced. I encourage anyone that wants to breed to do so, as long as it is for the right reasons. ie. not for how much you can make or lose, but for the joys of breeding such wonderful creatures.

I would always recomend someone to buy from experienced and reputable breeders if it is a species I don't have at the time or don't breed. At least then I know that if the person buys an animal from them they will get the correct advice if needed and also gives me some credability for recommending someone who also has a passion for what they do, and not just in it for the "thanks, give me my money and piiss off" attidute that is well alive in this hobby. Unfortunately there are too many people in it for the get rich quick scheme and that drive has now pushed them to risk lots by smuggling animals into the country. Just so they get the jump on the market with the next big thing, but as we can see from Jags, they can crash terribly fast when the realities of their issues are realised and also the fact one male adult can impregnate several females in their first year of breeding and half of those clutches will be Jags. Flood the market and kill the price, which is not necassarily a bad thing.