Breeding is only one facet of this hobby, it doesn't make anyone an instant expert or "experienced" keeper. It's such pity that a lot of newbies are heading straight for the breding, thinking it's the pinnacle of success, instead of going out bush, observing and learning about wild reptiles before deciding on what species to keep. To me, it's a reversed process of advancement.
Breeding Debate
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Snakeluvver2
Very Well-Known Member
It's a good experience, it's only one part of being experienced (as waterrat said).
I hope to breed this year, I know the risk of not being able to move animals on, I know that I will probably lose money and I know that it take a lot of time.
I think more experienced breeders are just asking that you know that and take your animals safety and health as a priority rather than just trying to gain experience that or money.
No one is telling you not to breed. They want you to understand the risk and be in breeding for the right reasons.
Like waterrat said if you want to be more experienced in other facets go herping, go keep some animals that are a bit different or try making a better habitat for your animals.
Reputable is something that's a bit subjective to everyone. To me someone that will have great follow up and tries to look after the animal after it's left the breeder itself. Communication is great to me. Some people don't care for it.
I hope to breed this year, I know the risk of not being able to move animals on, I know that I will probably lose money and I know that it take a lot of time.
I think more experienced breeders are just asking that you know that and take your animals safety and health as a priority rather than just trying to gain experience that or money.
No one is telling you not to breed. They want you to understand the risk and be in breeding for the right reasons.
Like waterrat said if you want to be more experienced in other facets go herping, go keep some animals that are a bit different or try making a better habitat for your animals.
Reputable is something that's a bit subjective to everyone. To me someone that will have great follow up and tries to look after the animal after it's left the breeder itself. Communication is great to me. Some people don't care for it.
I agree with that ausherp. They were some of the retarded questions I was referring to in my OP. Questions like that and another cracker "my (insert python) is 18 months old, will I be able to breed it this season"
I agree waterrat! Too many people are STARTING on adult pythons. Who does that!? Half the fun is raising it, taming it, learning about it and watching the sucker grow. Breeding is the reward waiting at the end, if you have the time for it. The way things are now, hatchies/yearlings are easily accessible and that is what keepers should start on.
Does anybody think that the problem may be caused by people selling nearly everything in pairs?
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I don't disagree, but unfortunately not everyone is in a postion go 'out bush'. I have done so in the past and absolutely love it, but I have also had access to a decent 4wd, had the time and the money to be able to afford a decent trip. You must take into consideration that a lot of these people may not even be old enough to hold a licence, or not be in the postion to go as they don't have a 4wd or their parents are not interested etc etc. There are lots of reasons why it may be extremely difficult or nye on impssible for some to go. Certainly a nights herping locally is OK and may be great if you live in Cairns or tropical FNQ. It is certainly something I would recommend to anyone for the experience if you get the opportunity to go. But it so much easier these days to just buy a pair of animals, read a book and get some info off the net. There is no real need to go bush to do all that if it is not something you are into. ie lots of travelling, billions of flies and tons of dust...lol
lgotje
Well-Known Member
agreed!
No. I generally don't sell anything in pairs unless a buyer asks for a pair or I have limited females in which case I will sell as pairs only for those wanting to breed.
saximus
Almost Legendary
To me that is more a symptom than a cause though. When you are finding it hard to move your stock having a package deal like "$130 each or $200 a pair" may entice people to get that one more that they weren't originally planning on getting
I'd love to go out herping and see the animals in their natural environment. I have even asked on here for people to take me out because I'd be clueless on my own but just never got replies. Maybe I'll just go up the mountains before it gets too cold and wander around with a torch
True, I didn't think of that
waruikazi
Legendary
That is all it takes. Get out as often as you can or feel like and just give it a go. Sometimes you get sod all (like me for the past week despite having 'perfect' conditions) and other times you hit pay dirt and find something wicked.
I agree, I used to live in a big smoke myself. However, you don't need a 4WD, just need the time to get out of the city traffic. Your second last sentence says it all - have it easy; buy a snake, look up the internet ..... but where is the inspiration? I guess here on APS.
saximus
Almost Legendary
Ok cool thanks. I'll just have to remember not to touch the cuddly looking little short fat ones
Lol, yes. I guess many years ago there was never the variety in captivity compared to nowadays and the best way to see herps was to go herping. Definately on my agenda for next year I hope. Unfortunately this years is to go cage diving with Great Whites in SA.
Another thing to tick off the bucket list.
Unfortunately what I see here is the same old argument you see with cats, dogs, horses, fish, birds etc, big name, big reputation, big money breeders selling high quality animals on one side and the small, starting off, backyard breeders on the other. If we only have the big names then the price would be through the roof and nobody could afford to buy them, keeping reptile keeping as a rich specialty hobby. On the other hand, flooding the market with low quality animals at cheap prices opens up the market to more people, expanding the hobby.
Dad wanting to get a new interesting pet for his kid, doesn't care if the Beardie is a lemon tangerine sunburst morph, he just wants a pet lizard for his kid to start with. There is a place for the upmarket, high quality, expensive breeding stock just as there is a need to keep the hobby cheap and accessible to everyone.
Dad wanting to get a new interesting pet for his kid, doesn't care if the Beardie is a lemon tangerine sunburst morph, he just wants a pet lizard for his kid to start with. There is a place for the upmarket, high quality, expensive breeding stock just as there is a need to keep the hobby cheap and accessible to everyone.
waruikazi
Legendary
Here is another problem. Why do you assume that it is the morphs that are high quality/?
Waruikazi, I am just making a point. High end breeders selling high end, high quality animals at high prices have their place but dad just wants a $20 lizard. If there are no $20 herps, dad will get a fish, cat or dog. On the other hand people will buy a $2500 Husky with great breeding and great pedigree. There are lots of people that will part with big money for high pedigree but dad still just wants a $20 lizard.
waruikazi
Legendary
Waruikazi, I am just making a point. High end breeders selling high end, high quality animals at high prices have their place but dad just wants a $20 lizard. If there are no $20 herps, dad will get a fish, cat or dog. On the other hand people will buy a $2500 Husky with great breeding and great pedigree. There are lots of people that will part with big money for high pedigree but dad still just wants a $20 lizard.
Alot, maybe even all, of the 'reputable' breeders i know still cater to the 'I just want a pet' market. The real market for the really expensive stuff is really quite small. I think you'll find that the majority of single reptile keepers find their animals in pet shops or from big breeders, not from backyard breeders.
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
There is so much in this post that needs correction... big money breeders? Who are they and where do they live? Some of those who breed large numbers of animals (I'm not one of them) are the most generous and realistic people I know - give heaps of animals away, and are very realistic about price. You put these people into a generalised basket that may be quite inappropriate.On the other hand, if those who have become 'big names' hadn't shared their copious knowledge, far fewer people would have the nous to breed their animals.
The notion of 'big breeders' discouraging others from breeding to protect their incomes is just a fabrication built on some sort of resentment. It's the 'tall poppy' syndrome modified to suit the herp world. You say 'flooding the market with low quality animals at cheap prices opens up the market...' well, flooding any market with what you call (and I don't understand this) low quality animals (or low quality products of any sort) will more rapidly damage any market than keeping quality high and outcomes predictable...
As one who has often counselled newcomers to the herp hobby not to breed their bredli (or whatever), and also as one who has copped a fair share of smarmy comments relating to this stance I take, I think you will find that, like me, those who suggest caution relate their advice more to the selection of species than a broad discouragement of breeding in general. It's just a problem that the species newcomers set out with are already cheap (read: already in good supply), easy to breed, and will be even moreso in 3-4 years time when they have a clutch to unload.
Maybe you think it's great that there are huge numbers of bredli and Coastals and maybe a few others, out there for next to nothing in terms of price, but these animals produce 25-40 eggs in a clutch, and it only takes a few clutches at those numbers to oversupply the market. These aren't things you can put in the spare room or out in the garage until you have a need for them. They cost the keeper from day 1, and continue to cost more as they grow. That's the cost to the keeper... then I like to consider the cost to the individual animals...
They are the ones who will suffer in the long run.
Jamie
Really? Who knocked the GTP prices down - the little guys or the big names (as you put it). You have a very skewed picture of the situation my friend.
licky
Well-Known Member
Lots of BS in this thread. Half of the arguement here is about market strategy and how to push everything out the door faster, whether it is buying animals in pairs at "seemingly" lower prices, or proving that by paying big $$$ ensures you a better animal.
I guess everyone is sick of the old coastal carpet or classic bredli and now wants a hypo/hyper version, because it looks pretty, now just add a shedding&feeding history and you got yourself a better quality animal, and now everyone elses animals suck.
Also the flip side of "hold backs", breeders keeping "superior" animals to themselves just until they have enough "superior"stock to now cash in on.
I guess everyone is sick of the old coastal carpet or classic bredli and now wants a hypo/hyper version, because it looks pretty, now just add a shedding&feeding history and you got yourself a better quality animal, and now everyone elses animals suck.
Also the flip side of "hold backs", breeders keeping "superior" animals to themselves just until they have enough "superior"stock to now cash in on.
Red-Ink
Very Well-Known Member
Really?? I thought all the stuff is quite apt actually... People are going to breed their animals that's a given whether for experience or money. At the end of the day what are you going to do with the stock keep it? Would'nt it be best to let them know what their in for.... breed a spotted expect to let them go cheap as chips and it's going to cost you money in the long run but hey you get to experience breeding right?. Breed "quality" animals you may (and stress may) have a better chance of moving them. I thought this thread would actually make people think about the consequences of putting opposite sexes together?
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