Centralian Python Does Laps

[Ben_Imbricata]

Thanks

At the end of the day if you post for advice or peoples opinions you can’t just shut them down and act like your right when they are trying to be helpful , Here’s a quote from Sdaji from a previous thread that came to mind when going through all this

“If a n00b comes along and says something completely wrong and is politely told the actual situation, they can either say

"Wow, interesting, thanks for the informatand most likely be welcomed warmly...

or, despite being clearly utterly wrong, they can say that the people who actually know what they're talking about have no idea, and claim that they know better despite being obviously wrong.”

I’m not here to argue or cause problems I was just trying to give advice or knowledge to someone that was asking. We all have to start somewhere and after owning reptiles for 7 years and countless hours of research I am learning new things all the time about these beautiful creatures we all love

 

[punkinhead]

People use words like dangerous, injury death etc like weapons here.

What is dangerous about having electrical connections in there?

Do you think they will stick one side of their tongue in the active and the other into the neutral?
Or do you think he will stand on his head, point his clacker in there and urinate above his own head?
Do you think the electricity will just jump out at him?
Or maybe he'll smuggle a screwdriver in there and dismantle it?

It doesn't matter how much knowledge or experience you have if you don't use your brain to think when confronted with something new.

Just because you haven't seen it before doesn't mean my mates will die.


Tell me about the enclosure that will injure my snake or allow it to escape?

 

[Tsuchinoko]

As pointed as peoples comments may come off, their intentions are good. They have the best interests of your animals at heart and are just trying to help, if you're open to criticism you can learn a lot and improve your snakes quality of life tenfold. With people as experienced as Sdaji, they're likely not reacting the way they are because it's something they've 'never seen before', rather, it's something they've seen go wrong a million times, eg the heat rocks.

I'm not telling you to uncritically accept any advice you see, but if you're willing to even just entertain it and try to see where people are coming from, you'll find your experience on this forum much more productive and probably more pleasant. Nobody likes feeling attacked and I sympathise with you on that, but your posts have been controversial for a reason. People arn't trying to attack you, and even though some of the advice may be unsolicited, it's well intentioned and in my opinion, good advice thats worth considering. Being defensive or argumentative will either just attract more criticism or scare away people who can offer invaluable advice - either way its a lose=lose. It's clear you that you really care about your snakes, so I hope you stick around and can look past peoples sometimes blunt delivery - don't be discouraged

 

[Yeliena]

Hi again,

Should be as long as he's got a cold place to thermoregulate. Could be that his enclosure is too hot or even something else. Maybe if you could wack up a pic of the set up in the enclosure might help and shed a bit more light on the situation.

Cheers.

Hi GB,
I'm attaching a pic of the tank with average temps. There is no heat and light overnight, which is the same for my diamond and jungle Jag. Thank you for your help

 

[Bluetongue1]

@punkinhead, though it is not generally recommended, it is entirely your choice to place electrical plugs and sockets inside your enclosure. They do need to be placed so there is no chance of liquid spills when replenishing the water bowl. Your arrangement is probably safer than someone with a power board on the floor next to the enclosure where a water bowl might accidentally tip on it whilst being changed. However, I disagree you’re your comments regarding the plug coming out of the socket and the snake’s tongue. It seems you know enough about electricity to recognise what could happen. The fact that it has not yet, does not mean it won’t. Alright, if did happen it would trip the RCD. Yet I would imagine that the functional abilities of tongue might be damaged in the process. Maybe you are not worried because the plug prongs are sheathed at the base? The bottom line here is that the image presented to less knowledgeable keepers, given you are aware of it but clearly unconcerned. That combined with no initial explanation of the nature of the glass you’ve used is bound to ruffle feathers. Something like a bit of a coat hanger wire, fashioned as push-on clip to hold the plug in the socket, would have avoided this negative discussion. I trust you understand where I am coming from.

It was my belief that any type of glass would be a poor insulator. @punkinhead, your comment on toughened glass therefore intrigued me and so I researched it. Turns out I was wrong. The laminate structure of toughened glass considerably improves is insulating ability. Thank you for getting me to correct that misconception.

George makes a good point about providing a degree of privacy/security. Here are a ideas to think about. Offering some hides at different levels may correct the current behaviour. From experience I know that the more arboreal carpets will often sit on a forked branch up near the ceiling of a solid enclosure with only a glass front, even when a hide is available. They evidently feel secure there. Perhaps you could try putting together 3 small sheets of wood, that fit into a top corner and have a forked branch as a ‘base’.

 

[punkinhead]

@punkinhead, though it is not generally recommended, it is entirely your choice to place electrical plugs and sockets inside your enclosure. They do need to be placed so there is no chance of liquid spills when replenishing the water bowl. Your arrangement is probably safer than someone with a power board on the floor next to the enclosure where a water bowl might accidentally tip on it whilst being changed. However, I disagree you’re your comments regarding the plug coming out of the socket and the snake’s tongue. It seems you know enough about electricity to recognise what could happen. The fact that it has not yet, does not mean it won’t. Alright, if did happen it would trip the RCD. Yet I would imagine that the functional abilities of tongue might be damaged in the process. Maybe you are not worried because the plug prongs are sheathed at the base? The bottom line here is that the image presented to less knowledgeable keepers, given you are aware of it but clearly unconcerned. That combined with no initial explanation of the nature of the glass you’ve used is bound to ruffle feathers. Something like a bit of a coat hanger wire, fashioned as push-on clip to hold the plug in the socket, would have avoided this negative discussion. I trust you understand where I am coming from.

It was my belief that any type of glass would be a poor insulator. @punkinhead, your comment on toughened glass therefore intrigued me and so I researched it. Turns out I was wrong. The laminate structure of toughened glass considerably improves is insulating ability. Thank you for getting me to correct that misconception.

George makes a good point about providing a degree of privacy/security. Here are a ideas to think about. Offering some hides at different levels may correct the current behaviour. From experience I know that the more arboreal carpets will often sit on a forked branch up near the ceiling of a solid enclosure with only a glass front, even when a hide is available. They evidently feel secure there. Perhaps you could try putting together 3 small sheets of wood, that fit into a top corner and have a forked branch as a ‘base’.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I did indeed imagine every type of scenario i was able to when i designed the interior of the enclosures. The inability to be able to lengthen all cords to 2m that would be needed was more trouble than what i did and this is the best system i could think of because of that distance. It's 2m from the mesh at the top which is the only way in, to the floor of the bottom tank. Heat cords, light cords etc are not that long.
I can't imagine him actually being able to put his tongue in both sockets at once and i may well, cable tie the plugs in if he keeps pulling them out, atm i have a cable tie making it harder for him.

In the end, he has a temp range from 34-38C on his rock (which i've put some carpet over to mellow any hot spots) , about 28c over the heat pad next to his rock (and on the large natural rock sitting on it) and about 21C in the cool corners at this time of year.

His furniture is fluid, and the sticks, rocks and hides move in and out of all their tanks at different times.
ATM he has a large hide in their that he uses very rarely.







I also regularly have a snake foam shelf hanging up under the downlights that he loves, but i took it out a while ago as he kept waking me up with his body squeaking over it while doing laps at night.

You are correct in that my guys feel secure on a branch, the Bredli below him, Whodat, moves only to go from his hot rock to his branch. If he's moving round doing laps it means it's time to take him out onto the grass.
The Jungle Python, JP, uses only his hot rock and the branch that goes up into the corner under the lights. It's cold there, but he moves up there as soon as i turn the downlights on over his rock at 4am when i get up. Been thinking of a way to get some heat to him on the branch, maybe a small usb pad. He doesn't use a hide either, although there are hides there.

While i may come across as a newb, and in some ways i'm very much still learning, i do have 3 snakes and have been keeping them for 3 years or so.
I am deeply connected to my guys and spend more time than i should empathizing with them and trying to understand their needs. I research all things snake before i do them or make changes to their habitats. I had a very good idea of their needs before i purchased my first Bredli and have researched any aspect i wasn't sure of.

I like the hot rocks not because that's all i've ever used, but because after using large under tank mats, in conjunction with heat lights both inside in cages and outside on top of mesh i prefer the rocks for their ability to provide the zone my guys need, 24hrs a day if they want it (and they often do at night) and without the maintenance and high running costs of both powering a 75-100watt globe and then replacing it every couple of months when the globe blows for another $60.

My climate here is without frost and the conditions are suitable for a variety of pythons, while i know neither the Jungle or the Bredli's are native to here, the climate is not Sydney or Melbourne either. I own neither a heater (cept the tanks) or an airconditioner in my house. I just use fans to regulate my temp in summer and warm clothes in winter.

Aside from the laps for one guy they appear to be happy, confident and healthy. They are never agitated, never strike and are handled, one or another, every day. They are taken out for time on grass for toilet, into trees during windy days, and they all love the rain.
They spend time on the table with their head facing into the fan, the next mod i will be starting for their enclosures is small box fans to give them some wind a few times a week. (that should start some more shock/horror).

I put his hammock back up, i have my doubts that it will improve the situation with him roaming, but it is one of his favourite spots to sit.

Foolish snake falls of it all the time though, so it disturbs my sleep.

 

[Bluetongue1]

It is good that you explained all that and provided info on the enclosure’s internal environment. You certainly got lined up in the cross-hairs more than once, and sometimes there is a tendency to pull the trigger too early. Oh yes, before I forget.

There is one point I need to clarify about the plug. I was referring to the snake’s tongue possibly touching the prongs while these were still in contact with the metal clips inside the socket. Not the forks going into to socket holes. From memory, the prongs remain in contact with the clips for the first 0.5 cm or so as the plug is withdrawn, allowing just sufficient gap for this to possibly occur. I reckon the cable tie will rule that out now.

Hot rocks fell into disrepute a few decades back due to them often failing and overheating. This resulted in many reptiles being burned, some so severely they were not able to be saved. I must say the same was true of the older style heat mats, particularly the gel type, which were an absolute fire hazard. Going back 15 or more years ago, I can recall reading about a company trying to develop a hot rock that would simply stop working if it failed, and could not short circuit and overheat as was happening. Anyway they have made a resurging in recent times due to improvements in design and safety. As per usual, less scrupulous manufacturers have jumped on the band wagon and not all products are up to scratch. As can often be the case, if it is cheap in price, then is may well be cheap in quality. At the same time, a high price is no guarantee of high quality. One needs to do one’s homework! Those with an adjustable thermostat, or with a fixed low wattage (similar to a heat cord), I would consider to be best. It is interesting to note that these days most hot rocks are marketed as “supplemental” heating and therefore not recommended as the primary heat source.

I am not setting out to recommend hot rocks here - just want to clarify the facts vs the myths. There are lot of articles on the net about why you should never use hot rocks. I certainly have not read them all, but too many of them provide false or distorted facts. The reality is that many terrestrial reptiles in nature absorb heat through laying on warmed surfaces as well as by basking. This is evident in the number of reptiles that can be seen flattening out their bodies in contact with bitumen roads at various times of the day or early evening. Sadly, this behaviour far too often results in them becoming road kills. Where there are no bitumen roads they use rock and other surfaces that retain heat. As long as the contact surface is large enough, and the heat reasonably evenly distributed, then all their body will be heated evenly. This is an example of conductive heat transfer i.e. through contact. Reptiles do not possess the insulating fatty tissue under their skin that mammals and birds have. Heat is therefore readily able to transfer into internal organs and the blood stream. This is also the reason why they are able to warm up their bodies so effectively by basking in sunshine.

My personal preference for heating primarily terrestrial pythons is an appropriately constructed heat tile. One of sufficient size for the whole python to easily coil up on, and heated by an evenly spaced heat cord of the needed size underneath. Done properly it is not only effective, but also the most economical and safe method of supplying heat. When not being utilised by the inhabitant of an enclosure, it heats the air in contact with the tile surface, to produce and maintain the thermal gradient in ambient temperatures within the enclosure.

One issue I have not discussed is why snakes and lizards are susceptible to severe burns on their ventral surface when in contact with an excessive heat source. Why don’t they move off when an area of ventral skin begins to burn? As best I can ascertain, the ventral surface has markedly fewer sensors present and the core body temperature sensors appear to override what messages they may send. If someone can provide a better (more accurate) explanation, I’d love to read it.

 

[Yeliena]

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I did indeed imagine every type of scenario i was able to when i designed the interior of the enclosures. The inability to be able to lengthen all cords to 2m that would be needed was more trouble than what i did and this is the best system i could think of because of that distance. It's 2m from the mesh at the top which is the only way in, to the floor of the bottom tank. Heat cords, light cords etc are not that long.
I can't imagine him actually being able to put his tongue in both sockets at once and i may well, cable tie the plugs in if he keeps pulling them out, atm i have a cable tie making it harder for him.

In the end, he has a temp range from 34-38C on his rock (which i've put some carpet over to mellow any hot spots) , about 28c over the heat pad next to his rock (and on the large natural rock sitting on it) and about 21C in the cool corners at this time of year.

His furniture is fluid, and the sticks, rocks and hides move in and out of all their tanks at different times.
ATM he has a large hide in their that he uses very rarely.

View attachment 334278

View attachment 334279

View attachment 334280

I also regularly have a snake foam shelf hanging up under the downlights that he loves, but i took it out a while ago as he kept waking me up with his body squeaking over it while doing laps at night.

You are correct in that my guys feel secure on a branch, the Bredli below him, Whodat, moves only to go from his hot rock to his branch. If he's moving round doing laps it means it's time to take him out onto the grass.
The Jungle Python, JP, uses only his hot rock and the branch that goes up into the corner under the lights. It's cold there, but he moves up there as soon as i turn the downlights on over his rock at 4am when i get up. Been thinking of a way to get some heat to him on the branch, maybe a small usb pad. He doesn't use a hide either, although there are hides there.

While i may come across as a newb, and in some ways i'm very much still learning, i do have 3 snakes and have been keeping them for 3 years or so.
I am deeply connected to my guys and spend more time than i should empathizing with them and trying to understand their needs. I research all things snake before i do them or make changes to their habitats. I had a very good idea of their needs before i purchased my first Bredli and have researched any aspect i wasn't sure of.

I like the hot rocks not because that's all i've ever used, but because after using large under tank mats, in conjunction with heat lights both inside in cages and outside on top of mesh i prefer the rocks for their ability to provide the zone my guys need, 24hrs a day if they want it (and they often do at night) and without the maintenance and high running costs of both powering a 75-100watt globe and then replacing it every couple of months when the globe blows for another $60.

My climate here is without frost and the conditions are suitable for a variety of pythons, while i know neither the Jungle or the Bredli's are native to here, the climate is not Sydney or Melbourne either. I own neither a heater (cept the tanks) or an airconditioner in my house. I just use fans to regulate my temp in summer and warm clothes in winter.

Aside from the laps for one guy they appear to be happy, confident and healthy. They are never agitated, never strike and are handled, one or another, every day. They are taken out for time on grass for toilet, into trees during windy days, and they all love the rain.
They spend time on the table with their head facing into the fan, the next mod i will be starting for their enclosures is small box fans to give them some wind a few times a week. (that should start some more shock/horror).

I put his hammock back up, i have my doubts that it will improve the situation with him roaming, but it is one of his favourite spots to sit.

Foolish snake falls of it all the time though, so it disturbs my sleep.

View attachment 334281

@punkinhead I love the aesthetics of your tanks. Whatever people say about them, they are lovely to look at

 

[punkinhead]

Thanks guys. Bluetongue i agree, the rock that had stopped working was a small cheap one. The one i replaced it with was one the same as two other ones i have listed as Giant, so 40cm x 18cm.

https://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-ReptiCare-Heater-Giant/dp/B0002AQCJQ
They work extremely well, and represent very little difference to a heat tile in reality.

Yeliena, thank you. My snakes are here for my company when they are out, but also when they are in. Where i sit at the table out in my warehouse i can see all three from my chair. JP sits right across from me, but the Bredli's are a view through the window into the house and into their tank. They get their morning sunshine through the back of the tank that faces that window too.
Was sitting there yesterday with the landlord having a beer when he commented on snake doing laps.

We call it snake TV as i don't watch TV.




same view now at 5am



Little update, i swapped them out top snake to bottom tank yesterday.

All quiet on the Western Front so far and there's peace in the valley atm.

We'llSeePunkin

Research continues.

After a couple days swapped into each others tanks they both started doing laps. So i decided to try another tack, in case they are just horny or lonely.

I believe there's little chance of pregnancy without brumation?





Now the heat rock's too small...

 

[punkinhead]

Well, they are both back to midnight vandalism now

The picture of innocence;

"It wasn't me Dad."