Collecting Wild Reptiles.
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PilbaraPythons
Very Well-Known Member
Forget about the money hangup. It is ether sustainable or it isn't. If it isn't then it shouldn't continue. If on the other hand it is sustainable then so what if some ones makes money. Do we care if a commercial fisherman makes a living ? I would say no. However we would be gravely concerned if he was devastating a particular species to the point of no return even if he was just giving them away.
Fuscus
Almost Legendary
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This is rich. The person who thinks you should keep quiet if you find someone with illegal exotics talking about moral obligation. :roll:
$250 isn't a bad price for a WC stimpsons, especially if you factor in tax and costs, I'ld be surprised if the collector pockets $50.
There are all sorts of costs in the animal trade : cages, food, vet fees, fuel, rent, electricity, accountant..
Sometimes animals must be kept for quite a while due to injury or poor condition or that they just don't sell. Then the one in ten shipment where the buyer is recalcitrant with the payment. Then bad weather can stop you collecting for weeks. Then a break down can take out a whole week. Then an infectious disease (or mites ) can render your entire stock unsellable until cured.
And on top of it all they have to deal with CALM.
$250 isn't a bad price for a WC stimpsons, especially if you factor in tax and costs, I'ld be surprised if the collector pockets $50.
There are all sorts of costs in the animal trade : cages, food, vet fees, fuel, rent, electricity, accountant..
Sometimes animals must be kept for quite a while due to injury or poor condition or that they just don't sell. Then the one in ten shipment where the buyer is recalcitrant with the payment. Then bad weather can stop you collecting for weeks. Then a break down can take out a whole week. Then an infectious disease (or mites ) can render your entire stock unsellable until cured.
And on top of it all they have to deal with CALM.
westaussie
Well-Known Member
RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.
So many opinions from people without any knowledge of the subject they are ranting about. (I guess its not the first time)
I dont know about you other two licenced takers, but I am not making alot of money out of this. If I was in it for the money I would be a sorry man by now. (could even lead me to drink)
All these people on their moral high ground, with very little facts.
maybe everyone with animals that originated from w/c lineage should give them up.
I hope stimsons dont become extinct in that little area called the "pilbara."
So many opinions from people without any knowledge of the subject they are ranting about. (I guess its not the first time)
I dont know about you other two licenced takers, but I am not making alot of money out of this. If I was in it for the money I would be a sorry man by now. (could even lead me to drink)
All these people on their moral high ground, with very little facts.
maybe everyone with animals that originated from w/c lineage should give them up.
I hope stimsons dont become extinct in that little area called the "pilbara."
womas4me
Very Well-Known Member
RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.
You never know westaussie. I only have around 10 million acres of land i am allowed to collect from. With 40 enclosures i could devastate this place. I might have to get more land..................
You never know westaussie. I only have around 10 million acres of land i am allowed to collect from. With 40 enclosures i could devastate this place. I might have to get more land..................
PilbaraPythons
Very Well-Known Member
RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.
( could even lead me to drink ) Now come on West Aussie I know you already drunk plenty before you had a license and I know you would drink even more if you were rich.
( could even lead me to drink ) Now come on West Aussie I know you already drunk plenty before you had a license and I know you would drink even more if you were rich.
westaussie
Well-Known Member
RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.
well this naive thread has lead me to crack a beer right now !
well this naive thread has lead me to crack a beer right now !
PilbaraPythons
Very Well-Known Member
RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.
This beer talk has just got to stop because my fridge is empty #%$*^
This beer talk has just got to stop because my fridge is empty #%$*^
Greebo
Snakologist
RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.
You guys presented your side of the story pretty well to start off with but these last couple of snide remarks took the gloss off it.
You guys presented your side of the story pretty well to start off with but these last couple of snide remarks took the gloss off it.
basketcase
Well-Known Member
meh. theyre entitled to be pissed off
G
Guest
Guest
RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.
yes, mature, very mature. :roll: :wink:
yes, mature, very mature. :roll: :wink:
Simon_Archibald
Very Well-Known Member
RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.
A familiar point that is continually raised seems to be that it's deemed OK to collect wild animals for captive breeding programs, however it's wrong to sell those adults to another keeper.
If the keeper that buys the animals breeds them then what's the problem? Just because the collector didn't breed them. Realistically it seems to me like it would be easier for the general public of all other states to buy these animals if the collector sells the adults. What I mean by this is:
(1) Situation A: collector takes pair of Stimsons Pythons and breeds them. Collector breeds these animals and then advertises 8 hatchlings. If 8 different people want those animals from other states, those 8 people need to each pay $180 to CALM before they even pay for the animal, freight, etc.
OR
(2) Situation B: collector takes a pair of Stimsons Pythons and sells them once health-checked to a keeper in NSW. This keeper breeds them and hatches out 8 animals. Each of these snakes are sold locally to different keepers who now don't have to go through the worry of CALM's fees.
It seems by my average example that the on-selling of adult animals would actually aid more people in getting these animals in their collections sooner...encouraged by not having to pay hefty fees. These people are then able to breed soon after and more and more become available over time, reducing the need to take from the wild anyways.
That's just my view anyways...
westaussie, womas, PP : I will be PM'ing you a bit later...please reply ASAP if you could.
Simon Archibald
A familiar point that is continually raised seems to be that it's deemed OK to collect wild animals for captive breeding programs, however it's wrong to sell those adults to another keeper.
If the keeper that buys the animals breeds them then what's the problem? Just because the collector didn't breed them. Realistically it seems to me like it would be easier for the general public of all other states to buy these animals if the collector sells the adults. What I mean by this is:
(1) Situation A: collector takes pair of Stimsons Pythons and breeds them. Collector breeds these animals and then advertises 8 hatchlings. If 8 different people want those animals from other states, those 8 people need to each pay $180 to CALM before they even pay for the animal, freight, etc.
OR
(2) Situation B: collector takes a pair of Stimsons Pythons and sells them once health-checked to a keeper in NSW. This keeper breeds them and hatches out 8 animals. Each of these snakes are sold locally to different keepers who now don't have to go through the worry of CALM's fees.
It seems by my average example that the on-selling of adult animals would actually aid more people in getting these animals in their collections sooner...encouraged by not having to pay hefty fees. These people are then able to breed soon after and more and more become available over time, reducing the need to take from the wild anyways.
That's just my view anyways...
westaussie, womas, PP : I will be PM'ing you a bit later...please reply ASAP if you could.
Simon Archibald
RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.
Good idea Simon. When will you have some hatchy WA stimpsons for sale then??
I understand why these do what they do. As i stated earlier if I was over there I would probably do the same. However I want to know if they give you guys a limit on what you can take, as in a particular amount per species or is it open slather and take as many as you want.
Good idea Simon. When will you have some hatchy WA stimpsons for sale then??
I understand why these do what they do. As i stated earlier if I was over there I would probably do the same. However I want to know if they give you guys a limit on what you can take, as in a particular amount per species or is it open slather and take as many as you want.
Have to agree with Greebo there.
Fair enough, but to go on like that was not called for. I personally found this an interesting debate.
womas4me
Very Well-Known Member
RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.
Hugsta, there are no limits on the number of animals that can be taken, only a limit to certain species. So technically if a herp taker wanted to clean out a certain area they could, provided they comply with the conditions on the license.
So saying, most takers do not do this. CALM can see on our returns where we are collecting from and it is up to them to decide whether enough have been removed from that area and to restrict or disallow further collecting from that location.
Hugsta, there are no limits on the number of animals that can be taken, only a limit to certain species. So technically if a herp taker wanted to clean out a certain area they could, provided they comply with the conditions on the license.
So saying, most takers do not do this. CALM can see on our returns where we are collecting from and it is up to them to decide whether enough have been removed from that area and to restrict or disallow further collecting from that location.
Simon_Archibald
Very Well-Known Member
RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.
Aren't they all?
I don't do snakes.
Simon Archibald
hugsta said:
Aren't they all?
hugsta said:
I don't do snakes.
Simon Archibald
RAZZA
Well-Known Member
Guys all domestic animals originally came from wild animals.. dog/cat/horse/rabbit/pig the list goes on and on......
Personally if i could afford the cost for some of the sleepy's i would be getting them
Is it the fact that they are collecting wild and on selling these to others..??? or is it the fact they are a high price that is peeveing people off...???
What if these guys were to sell these at a more reasonable price...??? say take a smaller markup on them but then sell many more......??? they would have to collect more to make up for it.....
It will be nice to see when some of the gex and especially the some of the dragons can be collected.....
:wink:
Too true simon.....
cheers
Personally if i could afford the cost for some of the sleepy's i would be getting them
Is it the fact that they are collecting wild and on selling these to others..??? or is it the fact they are a high price that is peeveing people off...???
What if these guys were to sell these at a more reasonable price...??? say take a smaller markup on them but then sell many more......??? they would have to collect more to make up for it.....
It will be nice to see when some of the gex and especially the some of the dragons can be collected.....
:wink: Too true simon.....
cheers
obee
Active Member
i haven't mentioned anything financial about any collector.if stimy's were $2000 or $20 it wouldn't phase me.my whole concern was as just stated that it is open slatter controled by calm.are they really on the ball with there limits of species being taken?have they told any collectors to stop collecting from an area?or thats the limit and to stop.i know of an isolated escarpment out west.wouldn't take me long to impact on the colony of stimy's there.they are easy to find.that population could be non-existant in know time if several ppl were collecting from it.
some good examples simon also.i would like wa stuff but the free wild stuff didn't interest me,i would however like captive bred stuff,i can wait.are you guys who are collecting,setting up,or are breeding these species you are collecting or are you just collecting and selling?
just my opinion.
obee
some good examples simon also.i would like wa stuff but the free wild stuff didn't interest me,i would however like captive bred stuff,i can wait.are you guys who are collecting,setting up,or are breeding these species you are collecting or are you just collecting and selling?
just my opinion.
obee
womas4me
Very Well-Known Member
Takers are only able to wholesale animals, we cannot sell to the public and we cannot breed from anything under that license. Nor are we allowed to breed anything under a dealers license. The only people who are legally able to breed reptiles are keepers or farmers. Would you have us break the conditions on our license ( and risk losing it ) to keep the moral minority happy?
The collectors are here to supply the pet industry with animals for them to SELL. We are doing just that.
The collectors are here to supply the pet industry with animals for them to SELL. We are doing just that.
Gregory
Well-Known Member
PilbaraPythons said:
You're kidding aren't you? How many times do you see a Govt. Dept go in half arsed into a situation. C'mon, get real with this one.
My point exactly about profiteering from wild animals. Taking that gravid Woma removes any chance for the wild population to keep expanding and sustaining itself naturally all because of greed.
BROWNS said:
That?s their right. I bet their thousands of years of harvesting wild animals hasn?t had anywhere near the impact that this so called legal collection has over this short amount of time.
PilbaraPythons said:
People keep using this analogy. The difference being, anyone can go out and catch their own fish.
Westaussie said:
Ah, so that precludes us from forming an opinion and debating a subject to try and get to the facts?
The knowledge I have of the whole subject is that people are profiting from the sale of WC animals taken from places where even THEY couldn?t guarantee that there won?t be any long term repercussions.
womas4me said:
What you could be doing is devastating small pockets of animals and having an affect on that area?s populations that may or may not recover. Or can you guarantee that you aren?t?
womas4me said:
My point exactly. You?ve just reinforced what I?ve been trying to say. Thank you.
You say MOST takers don?t do this. You may not but others may. You can only talk for yourself and if you?re doing it by the book then well and good but as you pointed out there may be some that go in and clean out whole regions of it?s animals.
I rest my case.
Greg.
Cerion
Active Member
I think the WA Government needs to have a bloody good look at itself, maybe if the laws were a little less tight than what they are, said individuals in WA wouldn't have the need to "poach" as such. Given that this is my 2 1/2 cents worth cos it aint worth spending 5 cents on.
Think of it this way in NSW you reserve your reptile get your import license $20, pay for freight another $25. there's 45 bucks before you've paid your money over to the seller. As previously mentioned. Its ok if your grabbing a BHP or something more valuable where that amounts to a small percentage of the total bill. but what if its a gecko worth $40 you've just payed $85 for it. Though I am dead against poaching for profit. It becomes quite obvious that in other states where you can obtain a permit to collect from the wild you are actually keeping the genetics of animals a little more pure if you are obtaining for breeding purposes ONLY. Not just taking as much as you want for the hell of it and on selling your booty.
Is it that the WA government is trying to discourage any form of reptile keeping by having such high import / export permit prices.
Money Money Money makes for good red tape. Why did they bother allowing licenses in the first palce if its such an issue with them.
Look at it from a perspective of fishing you can take as much of some species as you freakin want, with a total diregard for any other part of that waterways ecosystem.
Like I said its my 2 1/2 cents worth and I may have com,pletely missed the point.
Think of it this way in NSW you reserve your reptile get your import license $20, pay for freight another $25. there's 45 bucks before you've paid your money over to the seller. As previously mentioned. Its ok if your grabbing a BHP or something more valuable where that amounts to a small percentage of the total bill. but what if its a gecko worth $40 you've just payed $85 for it. Though I am dead against poaching for profit. It becomes quite obvious that in other states where you can obtain a permit to collect from the wild you are actually keeping the genetics of animals a little more pure if you are obtaining for breeding purposes ONLY. Not just taking as much as you want for the hell of it and on selling your booty.
Is it that the WA government is trying to discourage any form of reptile keeping by having such high import / export permit prices.
Money Money Money makes for good red tape. Why did they bother allowing licenses in the first palce if its such an issue with them.
Look at it from a perspective of fishing you can take as much of some species as you freakin want, with a total diregard for any other part of that waterways ecosystem.
Like I said its my 2 1/2 cents worth and I may have com,pletely missed the point.
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