Collecting Wild Reptiles.

[expansa1]

If licensed (controlled) collecting from the wild in W.A was allowed 30 -40 years ago we probably wouldn't have the most endangered freshwater turtle in the world with an extremely small gene pool. The government has spent thousands$ bringing the western swamp turtle back from the brink of extinction which could have been avoided if they were being bred in captivity.
I agree, all our captive reptile populations were originally taken from the wild-they had to come from somewhere. You can't tell me that most reptile keepers haven't or won't profit from this hobby of reptile keeping at some stage.
It is apparent a lot of people think it is morally wrong but what about all the animals lost to land clearing and pollution. I guarantee more reptiles are killed each year by bloody feral cats than will be taken by the 11 licensed to take reptiles from the wild. Our biggest problem in Australia isn't a handful of people with a licence to collect from the wild and potentially preserve a species but the devastation caused by the cattle farming and cotton industries, ferals, land clearing, animals killed on roads, pollution and the unstoppable increase in the human population. Our rivers are slowly but surely dying which is effecting all animals as they rely upon them. As they become polluted, the salinity increases, or rivers become choked with sediment the animals must adapt or perish.
I for one, would sooner have breeding populations of rare reptiles in captivity than to simply say thats life and it was meant to be.
expansa1

 

[womas4me]

Your points are very valid Expansa1.

Greg, good. Now we wont have to hear from you in this thread anymore cause your points been made. Catch ya.

Cerion, i am not a ' poacher ' and neither are the other guys. It shows your ignorance of WA's licensing structure for you to use this term.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Greg
While I admire your sense of concern I feel that you clearly have a limited understanding of the environmental impact of removing a gravid woma regardless of the personal reward. I am asking you this. Do you honestly beleive if I took one gravid woma from an area that that particular area would not eventually have more of the same?. And you also say that the difference in the fishermans analogy is that everybody can catch there own. What has that got to do with it ?. At the end of the day Grieg many people will never morally agree with this whole system here but it seems to to be supported by many people that have graduated with degrees in environmental science etc. Could it it be that they have a clearer understanding of the matter than people like your self?.

 

[Gregory]

No need to put a bloke down just because he's not a scientist mate. I can still have an opinion and voice it. We're all here to learn.


Taking one Gravid Woma from an area may have little or no affect but taking many Womas from a given area WILL obviously have some sort of affect. Surely this reasoning isn't too far from fact. It's true what you say that many people will never morally agree with the system but by Christ I'll defend my right to an opinion until I'm convinced otherwise.



Greg

 

[Fuscus]

If you were really worried about the effect on wild populations you would rant on the effect of development and roads have on reptile populations, not the dozen or so people trying to make an honest living. So far this year I have seen at least 500 reptiles removed from the wild population by cars.
Also one of the big differences between commercial collecting and amature collecting is that if the population drops ( either due to their efforts or due to other causes ) then the commercial collectors will move on, but amateurs will keep returning to the same spot again and again. You would find that easy to get to areas would suffer dramatic population crashes with amateur collecting.

To use the fishing analogy, in the late eighties the fish population of Port Phillip Bay crashed, for a couple of years there was almost no sizeable fish there. Sighting a bream or a flathead while diving was a very rare experence. Yet every wharf and pier would have 50 or so people fishing for the last sorry survivors.

 

[bigguy]

It amazes me to no end how newcomers to this great hobby take this high and mighty moral ground that animals should NEVER be removed from the wild. Why, well simply put by most people nearly everything is captive bred these days and is readily available. There is no need to take from the wild.

But what these newcomers forget to realise is that they have entered the realm of herps at a time when the industry is refined and animals are now captive bred. But remember we had to start from somewhere, it was not always refined.

There have been 3 amnesties in NSW since 1974 and literally thousands of illegally wild caught reptiles were declared on each amnesty. These reptiles were stollen from the bush with no control at all, and people sold and bought them at a drop of a hat. Now did it effect the populations of wild reptiles in NSW. No it did not. And I can easily assure you in the last 30 years in NSW private collectors would have taken illegally from the bush more reptiles than 15 legal collectors in WA could in 500 years. And WA is huge compared to NSW and has the largest reptile population in Australia

For the person who stated NSW reptile keeping only started in 1997, and we have gone so far in that short amount of time really doesn't know what he was talking about. Hundreds of reptile keepers were licenced in 1974 when the laws were first established. Again many more hundreds of illegal collections were licenced in a massive amnesty in 1987. These two periods in NSW reptile history were when the base for the current captive breeding programs started. In 1997 the currect laws started and captive bred animals were already available for any new licencee, which I might add are most of the people now complaining re wild caught animals. But dont forget. It has taken nearly 30 years of illegal collecting to get the eastern states to the point were we no longer have to take from the wild. I agree that now in the eastern states animals should no longer be wild caught due to the strong captive breeding program now in place.

But WA is 30 years behind us. Their reptile keeping has only just been allowed and they have no captive base to start from. Just as it happened in the eastern states, it has to start somewhere.

Now I think Calm went about it the right way. Rather then having all reptile keepers running around the bush raping national parks and destroying the habitat as happened in NSW, they have allowed a few individuals to be licenced to collect on behalf of all the reptile keepers. These people have to follow strick conditions while collecting, even supplying Calm with the GPS co-ordinance of each catptive reptile. Are they entilled to make money, of coarse they are. They have to cover huge licence fees, royalties on each animal caught to Calm, heavy maintainance on vehicles and not to mention $1.30 a lite for fuel.

It is also my understanding Calm are monitoring the amount of animals collected and when they feel enough of a species has been collected it will be removed from the takers list and another species may be added. I for one think its a fair system and wish NSW had adopted it many years ago. However, I also agree that Calms royalties and export/import fees are unbelievably high.

Too now say WA doesn't have the moral right to collect wild animals from breeding programs, is being a tad hypicritical. We in the Eastern States did exactly the same thing, but with one difference, uncontrolled rape of the bush

 

[Gregory]

Geez Bob, you're always so quick to belittle a person because they haven't got as much experience as you. Be fair mate. Just because a person may be lacking the years of experience in keeping doesn't mean that an opinion can't be given. Do we all have to wait 30 years before we can speak up? Talk about high and mighty ground. Give people credit for at least prompting a debate about what a lot consider a serious issue.

You say that it's taken 30 years of illegal collecting to have gotten to where we are now. You don't think the same thing hasn't been happening in WA for the same period of time?

Another thing. I haven't said that they should NEVER be taken from the wild. What I've said is that in my opinion it would be preferable to take from the wild and breed and sell the offspring rather than going out collecting and selling off animals willy nilly. My initial objection was that people can go out and treat the country as a giant reptile supermarket and onsell animals for profit. I'd wholeheartedly back any plan that would eliminate the wholesale collection of animals in favour of defined and regulated breeding programs setup for the open market.

 

[westaussie]

One of the landowners that have given me permission to take reptiles from their land is the "Satterley group" - This company clears land on a large scale for new housing development. ( I cannot complain about this practise as I choose to live in a house myself)

I particularly targeted these areas to do my "poaching", as I feel I am giving some of the wildlife a second chance at life. Unfortunately the animals that I do not find are left to tackle the bulldozers.

On other properties that have given me permission to enter their land, much of the habitat is already cleared for agriculture and grazing.
(The two largest threats to our native wildlife are destruction of habitat and introduced animals.

I have studied & worked with reptiles for over 15 years, but as yet, i have not developed the skills to find every individual reptile in a given area. The bulldozers & introduced animals seem to be far more effective than me.

landowners are allowed to clear their land of habitat and keep any feral pet and breed these pets without any breeding restrictions at all.

Saying this, I seek permission from landowners to remove some native reptiles from their property so we can establish these animals in captivity and give some kids the opportunity to keep a pet reptile.

In turn these kids will develop a better understanding of our native wildlife and hopefully a better appreciation of native ecosystems & habitats than the generations before them.

So I will continue to do what I do and invite anyone who believes that I am a poacher to come along on a field trip with me and see first hand what actually goes on out there before judging me.

You never know - you may even learn a thing or two! ( because I do everytime i get out there )

 

[expansa1]

Here Here Bob!!

And Greg,
stop taking everything as a personal attack. Please just look at the big picture. The reason for these groups is to debate topics such as these without individuals feeling the need to think every comment is a personal attack!
You ARE entitled to your opinion whether or not it is right or wrong! No one is going to deny you of that!
expansa1

 

[Fuscus]

Greg, you deliberatly start a provocative thread using provocative language and now you are complaining you have provoked a reaction. If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen.
And if you can collect animals but only sell the offspring, what animals are going to be targeted - gravid females of course.

 

[Gregory]

I haven't taken much of anything personally expansa. I'm just answering criticisms and retorts is all.
I started this whole thread off with the statement that none of this was personal. Having said that there's been a few points raised that seem to single people out for their supposed lack of experience..
I'm not targeting the person I'm targeting the act.

Westaussie, If I were in a position to do so I'd willingly accept your invitation.
I'm not judging anyone. I'm stating my belief in what I think is wrong. Surely I have that right.


Ah Puhlease fucsus. Give over mate. We're trying to conduct a rational debate here. Don't start getting narky. Things will just deteriorate and the thread will crash and burn.



Greg.

 

[bigguy]

As expansia stated, I was not directing an attack at anyone. I was mearly given a history lesson to the new members to the hobby who have now taken a moral high ground. If they think it is so wrong, dont keep reptiles because your stock was probably breed from illegally caught animals.

As for gregorys comment re Wa illegally collecting. Yes I am sure it took place as well in WA, but with one exception
, and that being Calm did not hold any amnesties to make these illegal animals legal.

 

[hey_im_sam]

I have to say this has been a quite interesting read
I didn't see Bob's post as intentionally belittling - the fact is that he has been around and does have a different perspective, and was adding that to the 'discussion' womas, west, & pp, your posts have been well put, managing to keep a bit of coherency when being attacked like that is admirable! I got a lot out of them.
Obviously there are going to be a lot of people with a moral objection to the collecting. I struggle with it myself, it doesn't sit quite right. However when I weigh it against a few facts and think rationally and logically for a minute, my moral objection doesn't seem to have a leg to stand on. Without animals legally available, there would be far more illegally collected animals. I'm not saying it doesn't still happen, but with animals legally available the demand for the illegal will lessen... thus so will the supply. Having licensed collectors like the three on this forum take from the wild is, in my opinion, far better than poachers.
To protect reptiles in the wild, a captive population needs to be established. CALM is making this happen in the way they deem best, though obviously again there will be people disagreeing with parts of it. I think the fees are insane, but they serve a purpose - every animal exported is one less for WA's captive population.
That being said, are the import fees anything other than self-serving? (serious question that one guys!) That seems only to limit the growth of the captive population.. locality data may be preserved I suppose.. anyone?

 

[womas4me]

And they have no intention of an amnesty either. They prosecute vigoursly anyone found with illegal reptiles and actively persue leads and tip offs that may lead them to prosecute. CALM's view and rightly so is that if your doing it illegally now or before licensing was introduced they will try their damnest to find and prosecute you. Already one person has had thier collectors license cancelled.

 

[westaussie]

Sam, I am all for dropping import fees. The more animals we import the less we need to take. But we can only work with the system that we have.

 

[Fuscus]

That being said, are the import fees anything other than self-serving? (serious question that one guys!) That seems only to limit the growth of the captive population.. locality data may be preserved I suppose.. anyone?

The import fees proberly serve a number of purposes
1 / It helps to pay for inspections ( if they occur )
2 / It limits the traffic interstate. They proberly don't want thousands of sleepies imported to later escape ( or be released ) and mingle with the locals
3 / CALM is interested in WA reptiles and reptile collectors. They are proberly trying to insure that the WA demand is serviced by the collectors before the interstate demand.

 

[womas4me]

The actual import permit fee is not too bad but I believe that CALM should not take a royalty off imported animals.

 

[Simon_Archibald]

The import system probably is a downer for you guys that would like to keep eastern species, but at this stage I think it is still really great that keepers from all over the country now have available guaranteed locality-pure animals whose location data is reliable and accurate. Unfortunately there are just too many animals out there that are bred of different localities, and have different colourations, but they are bred for being the same species (ie. Pogona vitticeps, Morelia sp, Varanus acanthurus are just a few of the commonly available species where this seems to happen).

This locality information is not only useful to the keeper and their subsequent purchasers, but also for conservation purposes if this knowledge is needed later on.

Simon Archibald

 

[Magpie]

OK, I'm seeing a few diferent points of view here. Please bear with me while I try and clear this up for my own sake:
PP says that these animals are very common, no chance of decreasing populations by collecting but Womas says that they are hard to find and he has to travel large distances and spend lots of money to find them.
It's ok to wild collect in WA because their licence system has just started, but not elsewhere because they have CB animals already? Why not simply allow the importation of eastern states animals?
If it's not about profiteering, why are womas and blackheads so much more expensive than stims? I know they have a higher fee, but not that much. Note: no problem with this, just don't try and deny it.

I do not really care about these things, it's just stuff I picked up on reading this thread.

Now as I said... my problem is with the system. I was misinformed it seems... I was told you can only sell the results of ONE breeding of your animals per year, and then only to a pet shop or farmer. My impression was if this was the case... why would they bother to buy from hobby breeders rather than wild takers?

 

[womas4me]

Magpie, we cant just take anything we find from anywhere. I cant just pick up a stimi i find on the road. We need written permission from the manageing authority of the land we want to collect from to collect from it. The closest land i have is 80 km away. Then there is the travel around the property to get to the suitable locations. The reptiles are plentiful when you are in the right spot though. The cost comes from numerous things. As bigguy said, deisel is over $1.30 a litre. Put that into perspective with two tanks of fuel in a night and i have just outlayed over $150. Just on fuel.
Also, we should we in WA have to keep eastern states reptiles when i personally believe that we have some of the most s@#t hot looking ones around. I have seen accies from over there that are just plain bland. Why should we be subjected to that when ours are great and anything but. In many years time when the whole wild caught debate is over, there will be a wide variety of animals about, not just those that occur in the east. This is a good thing IMO.
Also, no one but a dealer or a farmer can buy reptiles from a collector. A taker cannot export, import, breed or sell to the public. All a taker can do is sell to dealers or farmers. Thats it. The takers market is very small.