Cross & hybrid bred Pythons. BRING IT ON!!!!
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JandC_Reptiles
Very Well-Known Member
The problem with inbreeding is that it not only highlights the good traits such as markings & colours but it also increases any bad traits that the parents may have. The problems with cats & dogs that have been cross bred for generations is that they may be carrying small un-noticable defaults and when bred with a sibling that default is increased and enhanced to the effect of possibly being dire. ATM these problems have not been witnessed with reptiles, but if the hobby continues the way it is with increased hybrids & risks of diseases inbreeding may become an issue in the future. Hence we should be selective breeding now for perfect lines without muddying the water any further.
JMO
JMO
They're Ligers and Taigons, depending on whether the male is the tiger or lion. Like mules and hinnies.
Jones of the Jungle
Active Member
Well when my husband and i were picking our first Jungles, we had picked a male we liked and then had decided on the female, my first question was "are they from the same clutch?". Unfortunately the answer was yes. So even though we were advised that if we were to breed the brother and sister and then put one of their offspring back with one of them it would be ok, I convinced my husband to pick another female. The female that we did pick I admit wasn't as good looking as the original female but at least was from a different clutch.
By the way what are peoples opinion on the meaning of MORPHS?
By the way what are peoples opinion on the meaning of MORPHS?
Inbreeding in dogs once has no effect, I don't know about multiple times though. My friend's labrador had pups to her sun (he wasn't desexed and managed to get to her bitch when she was on heat, it wasn't intentional), and the vet said they'd be fine, which, they were
But what makes a perfect line animal? A good handler? Feeder? Pretty? A drawback to selective breeding the selection process. A pretty snake that is a bad feeder perhaps.....
Few people would want to cull not only the whole clutch of animals that had some deformities and the parent animals that caused the deformities (perhaps remove grand parents if the person has lines back that far). Eliminating only the animals that have the visible deformity will not remove the problem. This means the problems that come with inbreeding is hard to control at the best of times.
Some will want a cross as they are cheap. Some feel they are pretty, I am more interested in the animals behaviour and reponses rather than if they are a lovely specimen or a normal looking one. I endeavor to have attractive animals as people would rather buy attractive animals than unattractive.
J&C you have summed up what I wanted to get communicated about inbreeding.
Few people would want to cull not only the whole clutch of animals that had some deformities and the parent animals that caused the deformities (perhaps remove grand parents if the person has lines back that far). Eliminating only the animals that have the visible deformity will not remove the problem. This means the problems that come with inbreeding is hard to control at the best of times.
Some will want a cross as they are cheap. Some feel they are pretty, I am more interested in the animals behaviour and reponses rather than if they are a lovely specimen or a normal looking one. I endeavor to have attractive animals as people would rather buy attractive animals than unattractive.
J&C you have summed up what I wanted to get communicated about inbreeding.
Jones of the Jungle
Active Member
By the way Megalea, that is a beautiful cat you have there, we have 3 moggies and my husband desperately wants a Devon.
I appreciate your post Munkee, you have some very good points there. Just like the Green Tree Pythons, beautiful animal but from what I've heard it's a pain to get hatchlings to start feeding.
But i would like to add that I am in this game for my love of all animals, and I keep detailed records of all 5 pythons ATM, for example whether they struck and constricted their prey, or whether they casually started to swallow it. And when I finally do have offspring that go to new homes I intend to pass on such detailed information to the new owner, to help them best care for their new pet. because in the end it is the reptiles I care most about.
I appreciate your post Munkee, you have some very good points there. Just like the Green Tree Pythons, beautiful animal but from what I've heard it's a pain to get hatchlings to start feeding.
But i would like to add that I am in this game for my love of all animals, and I keep detailed records of all 5 pythons ATM, for example whether they struck and constricted their prey, or whether they casually started to swallow it. And when I finally do have offspring that go to new homes I intend to pass on such detailed information to the new owner, to help them best care for their new pet. because in the end it is the reptiles I care most about.
sorry just have to ask, you mentioned some people are ok with CROSSING subspecies but not ok with interbreeding! when you sau interbreeding are you refering to breeding womas x carpets ect, because most morelia are subspecies with the species name being spilota.
so what your asking is, those who dont mind breeding a diamond and a jungle together or breeding a bredli and a MD together, do they feel ok with breeding a woma and a GTP together?
sorry just not sure what you where originally asking?
so what your asking is, those who dont mind breeding a diamond and a jungle together or breeding a bredli and a MD together, do they feel ok with breeding a woma and a GTP together?
sorry just not sure what you where originally asking?
azza74
Active Member
i know inbreeding with dogs has led to a high amount of hip problems in large breed dogs but thats occured thru a long line of inbreeding not thru 1 or 2 generations. reps would prob be the same but again itd prob take a lot of inbreeding to see problems.
plus if you want to see reasons not to risk inbreeding, just watch jerry springer:lol:
plus if you want to see reasons not to risk inbreeding, just watch jerry springer:lol:
Jones of the Jungle
Active Member
I was infact asking about cross breeding carpets ie diamond x jungle, (Morelia Spilota Spilota X Morelia Spilota Cheynei)
Jones of the Jungle
Active Member
lol azza for the Jerry Springer comment!!!!
I believe inbreeding should be avoided if possible.
I can think of 2 instances where breeding to produce morphs has resulted in inferior or dead offspring.
I believe that the jaguar morph produces a super homozygous form which although producing a leucistic colouration has not so far produced viable offspring. it has been sugested that outbreeding may 'solve' the lethal problem.
breeding for leucistic colouration in texas ratsnakes has thrown up individuals with a bug eyed appearance, again its possible this eye condition has been fixed by inbreeding to 'concentrate' the leucistic gene.
of course some people may find the bug eye appearace attractive.....
inbreeding may allow you to fix-improve the conditions you are breeding for but you must be prepared for any negative effects also.
good luck with your jungles - they're fab.
I can think of 2 instances where breeding to produce morphs has resulted in inferior or dead offspring.
I believe that the jaguar morph produces a super homozygous form which although producing a leucistic colouration has not so far produced viable offspring. it has been sugested that outbreeding may 'solve' the lethal problem.
breeding for leucistic colouration in texas ratsnakes has thrown up individuals with a bug eyed appearance, again its possible this eye condition has been fixed by inbreeding to 'concentrate' the leucistic gene.
of course some people may find the bug eye appearace attractive.....
inbreeding may allow you to fix-improve the conditions you are breeding for but you must be prepared for any negative effects also.
good luck with your jungles - they're fab.
I think he is askin more about breeding a brother and sister or mother and son etc in the same species...not dif species or sub species...
Ok, my answer and ONLY MHO but...yes i feel that inbreeding is ok in animals whether it be dogs, cats, reptiles or birds...I breed parrots and soon to hopefully breed a few herps, and if you have an understanding of genetics then you'll understand how it works...Yes excessive inbreeding can lead to an increase in diseases...Also when inbreeding you are obviously doing it with the animals that have the traits that you are after...Just as inbreeding amplifies the traits you want, it also shows out the bad traits...This is why a "TRUE" breeding program takes so long even years to end up wth specimans that you are very happy with...In order to be sucessful, it is beneficial to keep all the young until they are grown up and pick the "best" speciman, of which can not really be done when they are young (after shed colours show more etc)(temperament will change from hatchie to adult etc)....also, when a good speciman is created they are then outbred (unrelated) with a animal that has many similar characteristics (whether colour etc) but does not have the indisrable ones, therefore trying to breed out the unwanted characteristics while keeping the ones you do want...
Genes are a VERY complex thing to understand and there are recessive and dominat, also they can be sex related, best option in my opinion is to grab a few books (like i did) to read up on them...But also (This will be flamed) experimant....Thats how many people learn and the animals aint gonna come of any worse, they will just be normal and you may end up with a great speciman to use...As i said i breed parrots and have spoken to people, read heaps of books and experimented and have got some great results...
And to others who feel the need FLAME AWAY...this is just MY OPINION from various sources and EXPERIENCE...
Ash...
Ok, my answer and ONLY MHO but...yes i feel that inbreeding is ok in animals whether it be dogs, cats, reptiles or birds...I breed parrots and soon to hopefully breed a few herps, and if you have an understanding of genetics then you'll understand how it works...Yes excessive inbreeding can lead to an increase in diseases...Also when inbreeding you are obviously doing it with the animals that have the traits that you are after...Just as inbreeding amplifies the traits you want, it also shows out the bad traits...This is why a "TRUE" breeding program takes so long even years to end up wth specimans that you are very happy with...In order to be sucessful, it is beneficial to keep all the young until they are grown up and pick the "best" speciman, of which can not really be done when they are young (after shed colours show more etc)(temperament will change from hatchie to adult etc)....also, when a good speciman is created they are then outbred (unrelated) with a animal that has many similar characteristics (whether colour etc) but does not have the indisrable ones, therefore trying to breed out the unwanted characteristics while keeping the ones you do want...
Genes are a VERY complex thing to understand and there are recessive and dominat, also they can be sex related, best option in my opinion is to grab a few books (like i did) to read up on them...But also (This will be flamed) experimant....Thats how many people learn and the animals aint gonna come of any worse, they will just be normal and you may end up with a great speciman to use...As i said i breed parrots and have spoken to people, read heaps of books and experimented and have got some great results...
And to others who feel the need FLAME AWAY...this is just MY OPINION from various sources and EXPERIENCE...
Ash...
Jones of the Jungle
Active Member
OMG Reptilian I would have to say that your post would have to be the most intelligent post I have ever seen seen on this site regarding a debate. If there was an emoticon showing clapping hands I would include it!
Instead of going by what I learnt in yr 10 science about genetics, I am going to take your advice and arm myself with knowledge as I have done almost anything I have an interest in. Do you suggest any good genetic books that would assist me in my quest, I have a basic understanding, but now I want a FULL understanding. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advanced.
Instead of going by what I learnt in yr 10 science about genetics, I am going to take your advice and arm myself with knowledge as I have done almost anything I have an interest in. Do you suggest any good genetic books that would assist me in my quest, I have a basic understanding, but now I want a FULL understanding. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advanced.
THANX!!!! I do try to have intelligent convo's...lol *takes a bow*...
Encyclopedia's are a good place to try, although they are not specific to snakes and are sometimes hard to understand, but genetics do still apply to every living thing and so still comes in handy....Also the internet is a VERY good source of info, try googling things such as Genetics first and look through and read a little, then try some things like snake breeding or {species type} breeding eg Diamond python breeding etc....This is where i read alot of info from...Also find any good experienced breeder and im sure they will speak to you about it (maybe ring your state zoo reptile keepers)...
Also, most common snake books eg The complete Chondro and The more Complete Chondro will give a basic to medium understanding of genes and genetics...I even have a parrot breeding book which explains genetics quite well, but still can apply to other animals...And lastly got to your local library and have a look...
As i stated before, not all that you read will be snake specific, but everything will be able to be used when talking bout any animals...
Ash...
Encyclopedia's are a good place to try, although they are not specific to snakes and are sometimes hard to understand, but genetics do still apply to every living thing and so still comes in handy....Also the internet is a VERY good source of info, try googling things such as Genetics first and look through and read a little, then try some things like snake breeding or {species type} breeding eg Diamond python breeding etc....This is where i read alot of info from...Also find any good experienced breeder and im sure they will speak to you about it (maybe ring your state zoo reptile keepers)...
Also, most common snake books eg The complete Chondro and The more Complete Chondro will give a basic to medium understanding of genes and genetics...I even have a parrot breeding book which explains genetics quite well, but still can apply to other animals...And lastly got to your local library and have a look...
As i stated before, not all that you read will be snake specific, but everything will be able to be used when talking bout any animals...
Ash...
J
junglepython2
Guest
Genetics of snakes aren't quite as simple as many people make out. While some traits and morphs may be goverened by one simple AutoRecessive gene such as albinoism, most characteristics such as colour and patterns as well as temperament are usually polygenic. As a result no simple formula can be used to predict offspring characteristics and inbreeding is often the best and quickest way to strengthen these traits.
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