Fairly urgent hatchling beardie help required

[nicman72]

Right, time to put you wonderful, knowledgeable APS people to the test - please help us save our little hatchling!
Here's the story ...

We recently bought two central beardy hatchies from a v. reputable breeder down south. Both hatched on Dec 1st, and we received them just before Xmas, both roughly the same size (as you'd expect). The breeder assured us that both were healthy and eating well (veg and insects) and we do not doubt his word for a second.

Since we've had them, one has not been doing as well as the other - she simply refuses to eat. She's really only had the one good feed since we've had her, and that was 5 days ago when she ate about a dozen calcium-dusted woodies/crickets throughout the day. Since then, she hasn't eaten a thing. No veg, no insects. She's now about half the size/weight of her sibling (see photo). In fact, she is pretty much still the same size as when we got her.

Other than her refusal to eat, she seems like a perfectly normal hatchy (from our experience). We have spoken to the breeder (who was extremely generous with his help and advice) and he suggested it might be impaction, and to massage her tummy/loins for a bit, plus a warm bath. We did this to no avail this morning.

Now she has started to go downhill a bit - she still sits under her heat lamp but closes her eyes a lot, and sometimes just lays her head down on her hands - not good. So we took her to the vet a couple hours ago. After ruling out impaction after a tummy massage, he gave us his prognosis... that she was most likely just going to fade away and die. Could be congenital, but she's too small to run any tests, give needles to, or even do an autopsy on. We took along her healthy sister to give the vet something to compare by; thus he was able to rule out environmental issues (ie enclosure, heating, lighting etc) as the other lizard is in excellent health, living in identical conditions. Hydration is also not an issue. She has even (sort of) shed once for us (meanwhile her sister has shed twice).

Now we are at a loss. The breeder has very kindly offered to replace her if she does die, but that's not the issue. We don't want to lose our darling Foxy, simple as that. Please, if there is anyone out there reading this that has any genuinely helpful ideas, please let me know, as we are flying blind now, and will try just about anything.. It really sucks when a vet tells you you're going to lose a pet. Help us make him eat his words - PLEASE!

Many thanks in advance,
Nic

 

[dtulip10]

ok i would seperate them.
you need to have a spot heat of 38 hot end of enclosure should be 35 cool end 28.
check the poo for little white spots alot of young beardies die from intestinal worms.
check with the breeder on if the lizard has been wormed.
10% uva and uvb globe should be used for 12hrs a day.
a beardy that small should not be eating vegies yet. keep them to the creepy crawlies (crickets and baby roaches).
do not feed any crickets that are larger than the gap between the lizards eyes (rule of thumb for compaction)

but with all that said i would put it down to the larger lizard dominating, quite common for beardies. so separate them asap.

hope this helps
Cheers D

 

[garycahill]

Try force feeding Hills A/D.
Your vet should have it in stock.
Simply mix it to a paste that can pass through a syringe, approx 50/50 with water.
Slip the syringe end in it's mouth & gently drip the mixture in.
Not sure on her weight, so a ml or two at a time, twice a day.
At least this will put some fluids & proteins into it's system, give it something to fight with.
Keep it on a constant 32 deg heat, as this will get it's metabolism up & firing.
I wish you the best of luck.

 

[dtulip10]

Try force feeding A/D.
Your vet should have it in stock.
Simply mix it to a paste that can pass through a syringe, approx 50/50 with water.
Slip the syringe end in it's mouth & gently drip the mixture in.
Not sure on her weight, so a ml or two at a time, twice a day.
At least this will put some fluids & proteins into it's system, give it something to fight with.
Keep it on a constant 32 deg heat, as this will get it's metabolism up & firing.
I wish you the best of luck.

hey gary what is that A/D i have never used it.

 

[garycahill]

Hills A/D is a prescription dog/cat food, high on protein & fats.
It helps to put condition back onto lizards fast, gives them a fighting chance.

Link to product info;
a/d® Canine/Feline - Canned

 

[nicman72]

Thanks dtulip - we are right now in the process of cleaning out another cage to do exactly as you said. We're going to put the larger, healthy one into the new enclosure, and keep the non-eater in her same enclosure, where we know conditions are just right (her healthy sister is testament to that). Basking spot is 35.6 and gradients down to around 28 - 30. Plenty of uvb, plenty of ventilation, plenty of fresh water. We breed woodies, so have a never-ending source of tiny woodies, and also have heaps of small crix. We know about the rule of thumb for insect size too.
Unfortunately, because she hasn't been eating, she hasn't been pooing, so am unable to check for worms. But if she had worms, wouldn't the healthy one be suffering too, considering they've been together since birth and share everything?
Thanks for finding time for the advice though. I'll try and keep this thread running until she either dies or gets better.
The vet very delicately put it like this - if she was in the wild, she'd be part of some animal's poo by now. We really have a battle on our hands to save this little girl.

 

[nicman72]

Cheers for that Gary. The missus is on her way to get some now... it's only $2.90 a tin too. Is there a trick to force feeding? I remember back when I was a kid having to do it, and I remember that it was a horrible experience for both the lizard and myself... Do I simply have to be cruel to be kind in this instance, and just prise her little mouth open?
Nic

 

[garycahill]

If you place your thumb & forfinger either side of the jaw where it hinges & apply SLIGHT pressure, you will find that the mouth starts to open. Using the edge of the syringe, pry the mouth open just enough to insert the syringe. The smaller the syringe the better for obvious reasons (1-2ml, 5ml max)
Once it is in you will usually find that the lizard will bite down on the syringe, which helps by holding the syringe in place, all you need o do then is to firmly but carefully hold the head still.
Usually after a few times of force feeding, they will readily accept it & it becomes easier, to the point that there is no need to insert it into the mouth, they will bite on the end of the syringe in anticipation.
Note, you are not using a needle on the syringe, just the syringe, plastic plunger piece.
Drip the solution in slowly, one drip, wait & watch the tongue but don't remove the syringe.
It shouldn't be too stressful if you do it right, but sometimes you do have to be cruel to be kind.
Hills A/D isn't expensive, not all good things are, although it is rare that they arn't.
Equally as important is the constant 32 degrees, meaning no thermal gradient/cool end.
This will get the metabolism up & firing. Between the two, this will give it the best chance possible.
The rest is up to the beardy.
I have to go out now, but I will be back in a few hours & check the thread for updates.
Once again, best of luck.

 

[nicman72]

Okay, last update for today.
Firstly, we separated them as advised - the bigger one is now acclimatising to her new enclosure. We have adjusted Foxy's (the non-eater) temps so that there is no gradient, just a level 32C throughout the tank.
Tried the force feeding thing, but Foxy is just so tiny and delicate that my big thumbs just aren't the right tool for the job, especially with all the wriggling. In the end, I just squirted some of the food paste onto my finger and sort of smeared it around her mouth, and she eventually lapped a bit up. It's a very time-consuming and inefficient (and messy!) process, but even the few little licks that she had is the most she's eaten in almost a week. Fortunately, she perked up a bit too - head nice and high, both eyes wide open.
All her lights are out now and the blanket is about to be thrown over the cage, so lets hope she's still with us in the morning... Will update the thread when I get a chance tomorrow.
Thank you, sincerely, for the help D and Gary. Here's fingers crossed for little Foxy, hey!
Nic

 

[cosmicwolf4]

Good luck D, I hope she gets better

 

[garycahill]

Heat needs to be on 24/7 to maximise it's metabolism.
You probably won't get to read this until tomorrow, but fix it for tomorrow onwards.

 

[Adictv]

heat 24/7 and alot of UV

 

[JKretzs613]

Hello

Hello,

I was reading through your post & wanted to add a few things for you. I hope that your little one is doing better.
I am happy to see that you did separate them. The stress may have been greatly affecting the other one, so that is for the best that they have their own tanks.
The A/D hills formula is great if you can get it. Otherwise, there is a formula that is specifically designed for Reptiles called Critical Care. It is a powdered formula that has tons of vitamins & minerals, fats & proteins for very ill reptiles. That is in my opinion even better than the A/D hills formula because it is designed for reptiles.
Just use what you can find though right now, as just getting food into her is the most important right now.
The hoppers, how large were they? Is her tummy soft or hard? If you still feel that she could be partially impacted, you can add a drop or two of olive or mineral oil along with some canned or fresh pumpkin & sugar free applesauce in with the food for some extra fiber to help her pass any impaction that may be causing her some discomfort. The little ones have such tiny intestines that it is not hard for them to become impacted a little bit. They can still be impacted even if they are going to the bathroom.
Make sure you are using a digital probe or a temp gun to measure the temperatures with. The range can be 35-44 or so on the hot/basking end, with the cooler temperatures on the other end being around 26-28 or so.
The UVB should only be on around 12-14 hours but leaving a ceramic heat emitter on overnight to help maintain the tank around 80 or so would be very beneficial right now just to help her immune system out while she isn't feeling well.


I hope she is doing better soon!

Tracie

 

[nicman72]

Thanks for all the helpful advice guys (and girls). Will get the heat cranking around the clock with a spare ceramic heat emitter I have - I'm assuming this would be better than a IR globe?
She's still alive this morning, and even had her head up sitting under her basking spot, although her eyes are still very droopy. Gave her a spray, and a little drink of some rainwater with calcium dissolved into it (as advised by the breeder). Now she's basking again. She's so, so tiny just lying there...
Tracie, the vet had a good squish around of her tummy, and was able to rule out impaction. He had only just diagnosed and fixed someone else's hatchling which had impaction (gave it an enema), so I have a feeling he knew what he was talking about in that respect. As far as his prognosis that she will die, well, I want him to be wrong on that count...
Unfortunately I have to go to work, and won't be able to check this thread until tonight (hopefully), but I'll keep updating for those of you who are interested. I sincerely hope there is a happy ending to this thread.
Cheers,
Nic

 

[Dragon_Lover_85]

When force feeding a vet once told me this : Hold her gently on your fingers and use your thumb (or vice versa whatever easy for you) use the fold of skin at base(underside) of her beard and very gently rub back toward her tummy so you are basically using her beard to wedge open her mouth (dont open too far and be extremly careful not to hurt her) and when open place suringe tip in and drizzle whatever substance you choose to use into her. This method works really well if done properly and rarely a struggle.
Also IMO IR globes are better than ceramic.
Good luck with her mate fingers crossed that you can prove the vet wrong!!! Get well Foxy xoxo

 

[nicman72]

Thanks for your advice DragonLover, I will certainly try your method. In fact, my partner will have to do it, as I am now out west working near Chinchilla for the next fortnight. Worst timing ever! However, I'm in daily contact with the missus, plus she can log into APS as me and check these updates, but I have certainly left her at the worst time possible in regards to looking after Foxy. I almost quit my job over it, but we've got filthy bills to pay...
My partner told me this arvo that when she got home from work, Foxy was still pretty limp and wouldn't accept any crix or woodies, and wasn't interested in eating the dog food. However, she did sip up a bit of calcium rich water. Poor, poor little Foxy, and I can't even give her a cuddle
I have obviously prepared myself to never see her again, and basically gave her what I guess will be the last cuddle I'll ever give her this morning before I left. I can't believe how attached I've become to this little lizard, and how much I don't want her to die!
Anyway, I need to focus on the positives, and the biggest positive is that she is still alive, and while there's life, there's hope, right? C'mon little Foxy, JUST START EATING for goodness sake!!!
Thanks for all your well wishes and help guys; it's actually quite comforting to know that there are people out there who are also interested in saving Foxy's life. I will post again tomorrow, hopefully not with bad news.
Nic

 

[reptileKev81]

Hey Nic,
I don't have any advice to give you as I've never had a beardi before.
Just wanted to wish Foxy good luck and I hope she pulls through.
And please keep updating. I've subscribed to this thread and would like to see a happy ending to this thread.
Cheers
Kevin

 

[nicman72]

Many thanks for your kind thoughts Kevin (and others).
I finally have a little bit of good news to tell. I rang the missus earlier (I'm still out west for work) and she said that little Foxy was looking a lot perkier this morning. And best of all, SHE ATE TWO CRICKETS!!! Woohoo!!! I feel pretty stupid getting excited about such a trivial event, but this is the first thing she's eaten in 6 days. It actually made my day today, as I'm always expecting to hear the worst when I ring home.
Foxy also drank up 3 drops of calcium water that my partner dripped onto her mouth. She wasn't interested in any dog food, and the missus didn't have time to try force feeding her before work.
It appears the 24 hour heat is having a positive impact - my partner checked on Foxy a few times during the night last night, and Foxy had climbed up her log to sleep directly under the IR globe.
I know 2 crickets certainly doesn't constitute a full recovery, but it is definitely a step in the right direction. The mere fact that she's still alive today has buoyed my spirits no end. The missus has got the week-end off, so she'll be able to give Foxy two full days of TLC. Go little Foxy!
Again, thanks to everyone who is helping.
Cheers,
Nic

 

[rubysnake]

poor darling!! and poor you nic i know how much you love ALL your babies! good luck with her it sounds positive and well worth getting excited for!

 

[garycahill]

Encouraging news Nic, not out of the woods yet, but definately a turn around for the better!
Lets all hope the good news continues & it makes a full recovery.
Cheers