Snake Positive Reinforcement?

[elapid@]

......
Some speculation about snake hearing abilities on here
Snakes are exceptionally good at feeling vibrations
All sound is composed of vibrations
I personally feel we have a lot to learn about their hearing ability which is most definitely different to ours but may be actually just as efficient as anyone who has seen tree snakes catching bats on a dark night must agree[/QUOTE]

i agree.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

......
Some speculation about snake hearing abilities on here
Snakes are exceptionally good at feeling vibrations
All sound is composed of vibrations
I personally feel we have a lot to learn about their hearing ability which is most definitely different to ours but may be actually just as efficient as anyone who has seen tree snakes catching bats on a dark night must agree

Oh no... the "NO!" debate may not have gone away just yet ! Even if the snake sensed the vibes from the shouted "NO," it would still have to interpret the meaning, and that's a very long bow to draw. That the snake was once heading toward the damned heater, then lately has not headed in that direction means nothing. Anyone who has experience with reptiles (and I've noticed it particularly with turtles) will know that if you put them out on the lawn, they seem, for some reason, hell-bent on heading in one direction, regardless of how many times you turn them around - they will just turn around and go back in the direction they wanted in the first place. This, however, is not consistent. the next time you take them out, the direction may be different, but they will be just as persistent in their objective of heading in that (new) direction. The notion that a shouted "NO" or a bit of rough handling has been thought about, reasoned and interpreted as "Oh, I've been a naughty snake" or "Oh, my keeper has my best interests at heart so I better heed what he/she has to say because that heater is dangerous" is simply a nonsense.

I certainly don't discount the possibility that airborne sounds are sensed in some way by snakes, even though they don't have external ear openings, but their ability to interpret what they sense has been way exaggerated by Sherlock. Neither am I diminishing their physiological sophistication as the fantastic creatures they are, but this debate has far more to do with the plain silly interpretations that people put on their behaviours when they take snakes out of their natural contexts and put them into the human environment.

Longqi, I suspect that we are singing from the same song book, but maybe just have different interpretations of the word "training..." When I was a lad in Perth (several decades ago!) I was friends with the then Director of the Perth Zoo. He gave me a couple of Greek Tortoises which had been handed in to the zoo (the zoo had no use for them). These tortoises very quickly learned to come for treats when I banged a spoon on the base of a saucepan - strawberries, clover flowers and a few other favourites - so, even though they had the run of the yard, I could always muster them when I wanted to know where they were. (Sadly, they were stolen from my backyard several years later )

My feeling is that there is a huge variation among the various types of reptiles, in the way they absorb information. I agree that monitors are very canny in a number of ways, but I think we will find that any creature which is an active hunter develops more strategies to deal with the world than something like a python, which is an ambush predator, and needs to do little more than instinctively find a place that it's likely to have a rat run within range, and just lie & wait - sometimes every night for weeks until it's successful.

Jamie

 

[imported_Varanus]

Most wild elapids I am involved with and occasionally rehab appear to me to exibit a degree of trust following initial capture, but I've often wondered wether this is something they've "learn't" through gentle handling or perhaps we've just been condition to expect explosive defensive/aggressive reactions from any "dangerous" animal, which just isn't the case (Scrubbies aside)? Case in point, a wild caught (and released) Highland Copperhead that initially fled the scene on approach, was freehandled after some gentle persuasion (within 15 mins of capture) and remaind in the area long after release (see bottom left) . In that last pic, you can see it's chosen a patch of sun to remain in and flattened itself as in basking. I'm sure many of you have had similar experiences.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Yep iV, same thing happens here with RBBs occasionally when I remove them from the yard and way from the bloody Jack Russells. I regard it as desensitisation rather than "training" though - it's all in a word I guess.

Beautiful creature btw!

J

 

[longqi]

Jamie
I agree about that particular scenario with the snake and the heater
I also dont think any snake could interpret sound that way

I was only commenting about their deafness and the way we interpret it which may be inaccurate at this point in time
We have so much to learn about these guys

We often get injured snakes
After keeping them with minimal handling until they are well again we let them go
Surprising how often they turn to look at us before gliding away
Normally release big retics beside water
One actually tested the water then came right back to my feet and looked straight up at me without the slightest suggestion it was going to strike before returning to the water and gone forever

Im not suggesting this is training or anything else
But I think their thought processes may be a lot more complex than we give them credit for and they are possibly not just hunting eating sleeping machines

 

[Ramsayi]

Perhaps a word more appropriate would be "conditioning" but on a very basic level?

 

[longqi]

Perhaps a word more appropriate would be "conditioning" but on a very basic level?

If a dog or cat bites we train it not to bite and say we taught it
But if we do exactly the same thing with a snake we can only call it conditioning??

While I agree that snakes cannot be taught as many things as a dog I believe they are capable of learning
If capable of learning they are able to be trained albeit at a more basic level that most mammals

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I agree absolutely longqi, that we really only touch the surface of what triggers behaviours in these magic creatures, I'm just wary (and a bit frustrated ) at the anthropomorphic interpretations some make of particular behaviours. I know I come across here as a big know-it-all, but as I get older I'm sure that what do know about them is far less than what we don't.
I guess I try and correct the record when stuff we DO know is misinterpreted or distorted by some individuals who NEED to have their snakes as their best mates...

I think it compromises the dignity of these grand animals...

Jamie

 

[notechistiger]

I personally think there's a difference between teaching a dog that biting doesn't get it anything, and removing a threatening presence (or a feeling of hunger) so the snake doesn't feel the need to bite.

I don't train my snakes. A calm, gentle approach ensures they have no reason to be threatened in the first place.

 

[ArgentinoAussie]

I don't think snake "training" exists, conditioning on the other hand is possible, to condition an animal to expect to be fed when it's light is switched off or to be handled at a certain time is possible. Snakes aren't stupid, granted they're no Einstein but small behavioral conditioning exercising for example only feeding at a certain time of the day/night can help your snake not expect a feeding session each time you open it's enclosure.

 

[thomasssss]

for example only feeding at a certain time of the day/night can help your snake not expect a feeding session each time you open it's enclosure.

i sort of believe this 2 but im still undecided , the only reason i think it may be possible is because when i feed my male woma i use a feed tub , hes the most placid little thing in his enclosure but once hes in the tub its a different story , he has begun to wiggle his tail and bob his head moments after i put him in his feed tub which in most cases with womas is because their excited about their feed , i have never seen him do this in his enclosure only in his feed tub and recently he has started doing it just about every time he goes in there , this kinda indicates to me that he remembers that when his in that tub , its feed time , i wouldn't call this training and i don't actually know for sure if he can remember its feed time but the tail wiggling sure does make it look like he knows whats coming

how ever this is about as far as i think it goes , i dont think your ever going to train a snake like you can with other animals

 

[cement]

Cheers Longqi, I thought that was what you would say, and good to have it written here for others to read. As with your releases I have seen things with mine in the sense that I have used different methods of release to observe different reactions. If I am not in a rush and its a nice day I will release by simply untying the bag and sitting away from it, letting the snake to make its own way out in its own time. More than once I have witnessed a particular action with DP's.
I also find that gentle handling of rbbs and other vens can keep them calm. The critical time is picking them up, once you have them and (at times avoided the bite) they can calm down and allow a certain amount of handling. (this can be shortlived or longer depending on the snake). But handled by a trainee or novice will result in a different reaction.
The word training I feel has many levels, for me , it means getting better at something ie football etc. With animals I prefer the word conditioned, but thats just me. It is open to interpretation.
When you handle as many wild snakes as we do, and don't get bitten, then I tend to think that it is handling ability and not conditioning. When many pythons that are bought as hatchies may be bitey at first but grow out of it, then I feel it is part handling conditioning and part the keeper getting better at reading and handling.

Is it fair to add that even the most well conditioned snakes (specimens that get exhibited daily and groped by crowds at zoos etc) do have their off days, where keeper empathy doesn't allow for handling on some particular days? And a different animal is used.

 

[Darlyn]

Some very interesting input on this thread, thanks guys.

 

[longqi]

Is it fair to add that even the most well conditioned snakes (specimens that get exhibited daily and groped by crowds at zoos etc) do have their off days, where keeper empathy doesn't allow for handling on some particular days? And a different animal is used.

This is one of the main reasons I believe they are not virtually mindless automatons
Every snake I used in demonstrations had slightly different likes and dislikes
I could tell exactly which one was not in the right 'mood' for groping just by their body language and chose the snakes to be handled each day by that language
[I had to use human descriptions because I know no other way to put it, so dont read too much into the phrasing]

 

[FAY]

I would say that mine are 'conditioned' to a certain extent. If you want to clean them and handle them...do it in the day. Late in the afternoon, evening...don't dare put your hand too close..

 

[Pythoninfinite]

thomassssssssss )) the tail wiggling is characteristic of a few snake species including Death Adders and GTPs, especially juvies. It's called Caudal luring, and the wriggling tail is used to lure prey to check it out and get within reach of the jaws. It works beautifully with DAs because they are usually buried in litter, you can't see them, and a bird or lizard checks out the thing moving in the sticks & WHAM...

So the tail wriggling generally signifies hunger anyway, and captive snakes that are "conditioned" to a certain feeding regime react to the prospect of being fed by caudal luring...

Jamie

 

[thomasssss]

i know its caudal luring in say adders but imo and the opinion of alot of other people (also says in doc rocks article on womas ) that in womas it is more of an excitement thing as the tail is nowhere near their head and they do it a fair bit once the foods actually in their mouth

what i was more saying in that post is that it sort of indicates to me anyways that he may remember its feed time when hes in the tub , only because ive never seen (not to say he hasnt) him doing it in his enclosure and it begins moments after he is in the bare tub , like i said though i dont know for sure if he knows whats coming but the tail wiggle sort of indicates that he might ,

now im off to train my womas to defrost and warm their own rats it would make feed time alot easier

 

[Pythoninfinite]

You might need to put a bracket or some mechanism on the fridge so that they have something to push against when they're pulling the door open - they struggle a bit with smooth surfaces !

I'm sure the tail wiggling indicates a conditioned expectation of food...

Jamie

 

[thomasssss]

yea im designing a system where they will be able to just slither up to the fridge and tap their head on a pedal at the bottom of the fridge , this will open a trap door inside the fridge dropping out a rat through an opening at the bottom , now ive just got to work out how to teach them to use the tap , i think they might be better at using just a quarter turn tap but i must say im well on the way to training them to fed themselves

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Excellent idea - a sort of vending machine system - good thinking there .

J