These eggs freak me out every time!!!

[itbites]

Certainly was a interesting thread...

Hopefully get to see them progress on the web site instead!

It would be a shame to not continue on with the updates.

 

[Hetty]

Oh, come of it guys. People were asking genuine questions, it's not their fault that "Carpetpythons.com.au" was offended so easily. Putting something on an open forum usually means you want to hear people's opinions and have a discussion, the original poster didn't want that (they just wanted praise by the looks), and as such shouldn't have posted in the first place.

 

[TahneeMaree]

I think the reason people question the methods is the fact that although they own the eggs and can do as they please...it's the snakes within which will end up in the hands of OTHER people, being sold off. Hence the concern for potentially hatching out a weak or genetically comprised animal that may have otherwise died in the egg for reasons unknown.

True, BUT I see no problem with it if the new owners are informed of the pipping... it comes down to supply and demand, if people are happy to purchase a snake that has been pipped then let them...
ALSO... What of the dog breeds (typically ones with the larger heads, Pugs for example) that are prone to needing C-Sections because their bodies are too modified to give birth naturally all the time? Should we go and hound these breeders? Should these puppies and the mothers be left to die? We also save other animals from the natural odds...

I do not see much of a difference...


Keep me posted on their progress CarpetPythons...

 

[Serpentes]

What of the dog breeds (typically ones with the larger heads, Pugs for example) that are prone to needing C-Sections because their bodies are too modified to give birth naturally all the time? Should we go and hound these breeders? Should these puppies and the mothers be left to die? We also save other animals from the natural odds...

I do not see much of a difference...

The difference lies in the ideology and epistemology of the individual. Some people who keep reptiles prefer animals which represent natural reptile populations. Some people prefer animals selectively bred for many generations to look different from the regular, naturally presenting specimens. Others like both types.

It is important to dignify others with the right to make their own decisions about what reptile types they would like to keep. Although I hold my own, rather staunch views on this matter, I find it degrading to berate the choice of another keeper.

What matters is that OP has demonstrated great husbandry skill in the assisted hatching of these snakes, irrespective of their type. Those who have personally attempted such a task will understand the steadiness of mind and hand required to do conduct the surgical operation properly.

 

[Just_Joshin]

True, BUT I see no problem with it if the new owners are informed of the pipping... it comes down to supply and demand, if people are happy to purchase a snake that has been pipped then let them...
ALSO... What of the dog breeds (typically ones with the larger heads, Pugs for example) that are prone to needing C-Sections because their bodies are too modified to give birth naturally all the time? Should we go and hound these breeders? Should these puppies and the mothers be left to die? We also save other animals from the natural odds...

I do not see much of a difference...


Keep me posted on their progress CarpetPythons...

I think you'll find pugs have been CREATED. They are not a naturally occuring breed, like virtually every species of dog in existence today. Unfortunately...many "purebred" dogs suffer from health issues due to their relatively small genetic diveristy and low MHC. Also...purebred species are usually accompanied by papers with a detailed family history, often dating back many generations.

Also, with mammalian births, the reason we intervene is because it would result in the death of not only the offspring but mother as well. This is not the case with snake eggs as they have already left the mother. If you were comparing it to removing eggs from an egg bound mother, then the comparison would make more sense and i have no problems with people doing that.

For the record, i don't condone the breeding of any animal that requires surgery to successfully birth.

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

Thanks Moderators. I will behave myself from now on. I apologise to site members for losing my head, sort of.
I will post the pictures again. I have observed something really interesting and I can back track it to the first time I pipped the eggs. I will ad the pictures first and then ask the question. I will start with day 51 and then label as I go.
I will start with this picture, its an eg that started to have grey spots on it at around day 30. It eventually started to smell so I opened it. Dead embryo at day 30.

Day 51: I cut the eggs 15 mins before these pics were taken. Notice anything funny? I realised it only yesterday.

Day 52: Heads up: Can you see the problem yet?

Day 53: Heads still moving. One of the embryos does not have something that the rest have?

One more interesting observation that I had at day 51 and day 52 is that the males hemipenes are not inverted. They are outside the body. They have inverted them and I am asuming between day 52 and 53.

If you look carefully, one of the eggs did not have veins on the exposed surface like the rest. Last night when I gently probed them on did not move and was stiff. This has never happened before so i had a look through the series of pictures. That one hatchling was dead on day 51 when I pipped them. Now I have learned something new too. I observed what i usually would observe with an egg candler. Dead eggs have very feint or no visible veins. The hatchlng would have still moved if i touched it seeing that the membrane they sit in is very gelatinous. I pulled the hatchling out and it was evident that it had some deformities. It was also slightly smaller than the rest.

I had a look tonight and they have not changed positions much. I have replaced the vermiculite with water to minimise the possibility of bacterial infection as well as to raise humidity in the egg incubation tub. They must be metabolising the youlk quite effectively at the moment as i have noticed a rise in temperature in the tub of about 1 Degree Celsius. The hightened humidity should aid in their metabolic needs as its metabolism would be requiring a lot of water at the moment.

I will post more pics later.

I do not want praise for this series of photos as mentioned before. I would like people to see what I see. Who ever heard of sharing in the reptile hobby hey???

 

[Greenmad]

very nice this is a very interesting thread thank you

 

[pythons73]

The first lot of photos of day 53,the 1st photo on row 3 hasnt any veins...So i gather thats the dead one],correct me if im wrong].Very interesting photos i must say,educational also.You always hear of the good things on public forums,Im pleased you have shared your experience,but im not saying i would do the same....Thanx again Carpetpythons......................MARK

 

[Just_Joshin]

Cool photo Nicole, interesting to see. One question.....the one that you said was dead on day 51 (no veins present) appears to have move and maybe even coloured up a bit more (patterning appears more distinct/vibrant) by day 53. One part of the snake (near the top of the egg) has definately moved by day 53 as ventral scales are now present. Was the movement from when you poked them with a probe perhaps?? Interesting all the same!!

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

Just Joshin: Correct. Of course you should never tempt fate by saying it has never happened before. Thats just like kicking fate in the head. I have never taken photos of pipping before. The camera seems to pick up a grainy substance on the membrane around the embryo (amnion). I am assuming that this might be bacterial growth as it would be similar to culturing in a petri dish. Eggs do however have immunty to these little pathogens. It could just be that it might just be the digital camera picking up slight inconsistencies in the membrane. It would be interesting to see how this develops. I honestly do not believe that the hatchling was alive when i piped it.

The first sign that an egg is deteriorating is the clear constriction of the veins when candled. When i pulled the hatchling out, the link between the youlk and the hatchling was see through. I have decided to pip the next batch of eggs at day 55 from now on. I learn and adjust, that is the only thing I can control. The worst thing to do is not learn something out of this incident, and make the same mistake again. The good thing about this thread is that it has prompted me to read up as much as i can about embryo development in reptiles.

Serpentes: Thanks for advising me about that reading material.

Ramsayi: Thanks for the 58 day advice. Years ago I spoke to a well known breeder in adelaide that said he pips at 51 days. I have always just been pipping them at 51 days.

It is interesting however and now it is documented on the internet for future reference. I might even write something up after this process has been completed. I am sure there is lots to learn out of it.

 

[reptilerob]

WOW how amazing this has been to read. Apart from the bitching and fighting, this has been an amazing thread to read and learn from. I cant believe how opinionated some people can be!!!
I for one am glad you posted the story and photos, thanks for doing so. ******* people like me can learn a lot from people such as yourself.:lol::lol:

 

[FAY]

That first pic Nicole, that died at 30 days...I thought it was a bird??

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

Its interesting to note that all animals embryological development follows the same route. This is what a lot of evolution theory is based on. Different hormones are secreted at different stages in the process. These hormones affect everything in our development in combination with our gene sequences. So at a few weeks most Chordates (back boned animals) look similar in appearance. I am a bit rusty in this theory as i studied it quite a few years ago.

There are others on here like Sdaji or Serpentes that might be able to correct or ad to this.

 

[kidsheart]

That first pic Nicole, that died at 30 days...I thought it was a bird??

yep definatly an emu... any idea how that got in there?

great thread by the way... on the most part ..

 

[wranga]

thanks Nicole. great to see this thread back on track. looking forward to your continuing up-dates

 

[BROWNS]

Yeah it looks very much like a bird doesn't it!Apparently reptiles and birds are closely related in some way in the chain of evolution.

CC.a the best closeup pic of one egg where there's a good view of a head it's hard to tell if there's an egg tooth from the best closeup pic.Can you yourself see if it has an egg tooth or not being that you have a better view seeing it in person than we have from the pics?

 

[matt123]

hey nicole here is a well know breeder in usa that pips his eggs aswell might have some interesting stuff on there aswell [video=youtube;gzHqMWgUrCs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzHqMWgUrCs[/video]

 

[Serpentes]

Its interesting to note that all animals embryological development follows the same route. This is what a lot of evolution theory is based on. Different hormones are secreted at different stages in the process. These hormones affect everything in our development in combination with our gene sequences. So at a few weeks most Chordates (back boned animals) look similar in appearance. I am a bit rusty in this theory as i studied it quite a few years ago.

There are others on here like Sdaji or Serpentes that might be able to correct or ad to this.

I'm fairly exposed to this type of research at present. The answer is that we don't know. The evolution of live-bearing from egg-laying is a complex matter, and the physiology is more complicated. You'll be pleased to know that Australian skinks form the backbone of contemporary research into the evolution of viviparity. At present it's all about occludin-5, uterine epithelia, tight junctions and calcium channels. If you're really, really interested you could look up some research by Professor Michael B. Thompson, an all-round top bloke.

Anyway this is sounding wayyyyy too much like work for my liking :lol:

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

I have tried to take photos really close. My camera just does not focus. They will have egg teeth when they hatch. I will take photos for you Browns. I want to try and disturb them a little less. I cut the window a little bigger tonight to make photographs easier.

 

[-Matt-]

This thread is extremely interesting, definetly what Id like to see more of on forums. It has really opened my eyes up to the different methods that breeders use, well done on sharing publicly your methods Nicole...best of luck with the final stages.

That first photo really does show the close relationship between birds and reptiles...incredible.


Matt.