touchy subject trophies

[Sinners121]

Sinners121, my issue is not with ranching or breeding for trophy hunting (even though I personally don't agree with the ethics of it), it is when people use the conservation bandwagon as a false facade.

My examples of the elephants and lions was more to illustrate the possible snowball effect that can occur even though common mindset simply views it as one individual out of a population.

I do however disagree with some of your statements, Lions generally mature at around 3.5 to 4 years of age they do not usually have the strength to overtake a pride at this age though. Their longevity is 10-14 years and the older they are the more conspecific fights they engage in resulting in scars or more serious visible injuries. Trophy hunters do want the BIG guys but they also want the animals in pristine condition. So it is extremely realistic to expect the most sought after lions are in the 6-9 year old age bracket as they are at their fittest, big and strong with less fights over protecting a pride so they are the pinnacle of what a male lion should look like in it's prime. At 8 years of age the most likely best possible scenario is that male was able to take over a pride at 5 years of age, he has therefore sired 3 maybe 4 generations of cubs at best. Once he is removed and a new male takes over the cubs and adolescents are killed or forced out, so the most recent generations are removed. So it is very possible those males only pass their genetics on to 1-2 generations.

Also the illegal wildlife trade is only behind guns and drugs so of course it is happening even without the legal avenues, but opening legal avenues makes it easier for the illegal markets to move their products. Look at the elephant ivory trade example I mentioned earlier.

I am not saying trophy hunting should be stopped! It has many benefits which are mentioned above by many people, but it does also have negatives.

again dan i agree with some points and not others

i agree that there are ranchers that jump behind the conservation band waggon, however many times even if they themselves are not actually doing anything they have to pay someone to get behind that band wagon.

i can understand why you used them as an example and maybe lions be ok but i definitely disagree with elephants.

as to the hunters wanting them in pristine condition there is a truth to that however i think you will find an equal amount do not as a pristine condition lion does not look truly wild. going by your statistics within the domination of a single lion it will produce breeding size lions and just under, provided they are females they would be kept however if they were not they would be kicked out by the alpha anyway. what is also not being considered is that many of these game farms are buying there animals by the animals or pride's which means there genetics are still being passed on. And the difference for example between a property that buys and a property that leaves its lions is something like 6000 and 40 000.

aslong as these animals are worth money and people are paying for them they are not going to disappear.

as for the trade in illegal wildlife that will never be stopped and at least with legal avenues the parks are being able to pay for themselves And as has been seen due to PETA entire australian business's have been destroyed because of trying to stop illegal trades instead of encouraging legal.

i agree there are negatives, as there is a negative to everything however i believe they are already trying to tackle these to better legitimise themselves.
An example that can be used is Rhino they are being bred for a bigger horn and as i think everyone will agree the large horned rhinos were shot out by uncontrolled hunting so is that not in someways correcting a wrong? it is also worth noting that the people selling these animals do not care wether they are for hunting or conservation so many parks have been buying from breeders.

 

[Henno]

I enjoy shooting as a hobby, for many reasons. One example is, honing my abilities to make good, clean shots.
Now, as a shooter, I also hunt feral pigs. I enjoy camping out, tracking the animals and overall just being able to enjoy the peace, quiet and beauty of the great outdoors.
Touching on the subject of taking pleasure from a kill, I can't say personally that I've ever had a rush of endorphins from putting an animal down (I make sure of a quick, clean kill, like several other hunters in this thread have mentioned they do), but I also can't say that I feel bad about it.
It disturbs me when I hear stories of people that have been unnecessarily cruel when killing any animal, feral or otherwise.
However, as has been mentioned earlier, when it comes to ferals often the most humane way of going about eradicating the problem is through hunting, (can't speak for other species, but I know that taking even a few boars out of the local population of feral pigs can thin the numbers considerably).
Whether people like it or not, we live in a country that does have a problem with several feral species and whether people like it or not there will always be someone hunting these animals, be it controlled or for sport.

 

[crocodile_dan]

We may have to agree to disagree on some points Sinners121 I can see this turning into a classic APS back and forth and to be honest they ****** me to tears

I will answer the question you asked about the rhinos: Short answer yes it is correcting a wrong, as hunting for larger horns was a selective pressure and as such breeding to try and return the rhino's horn back to it's pre-hunting physiology is in a way trying to correct that. Long answer I never feel it is as simple as that from artificial selective pressure to genetic depression in captive breeding, by trying to create one thing they could very well be inhibiting other selective pressures and creating a subsequent issue.

Cheers
Daniel

 

[Sinners121]

haha i think we may have to agree to disagree. you raised some valid points though and i will be doing more research now

 

[kybaryal]

one thing that really gets to me is that people that call themselves game hunters and then show of there kill as a trophie,. to me that's really weird . how can you get a kick out of killing something so innocent just for a trophie, what is wrong with this world. like these people that pose with there kill and gun . Im glad i never turned out that way, even living up on a farm with a gun and plenty to shoot i never shot a thing, only thing i ever shot was a sheep that had been injured and was in serious pain that it could not survive. my dad never shot anything only his dog after it killed the neighbours sheep and even then that was a very hard thing for my farther to do. i guess some people just don't no any better or that they cant see the big picture. what brought this to mine was that i was driving yesterday and a guy had a fresh kill ,head of wild pig attached to his truck driving along nsw newcastle rd like to me thats offensive and kids don't need to see that.

Im guessing you dont like fishing then... Killing poor defenceless animals !!

 

[Hamalicious]

Killing for food or culling pests i dont have a problem with. But i do agree that going out with a rifle and killing the biggest and healthiest animal as a trophy is wrong. It doesnt make you a man because you killed an animal from 100m away that didnt even have a chance to defend itself. i say if you want a trophy, go one on one with the animal, then well see how tough you really are.

 

[thomasssss]

Killing for food or culling pests i dont have a problem with. But i do agree that going out with a rifle and killing the biggest and healthiest animal as a trophy is wrong. It doesnt make you a man because you killed an animal from 100m away that didnt even have a chance to defend itself. i say if you want a trophy, go one on one with the animal, then well see how tough you really are.

some people do , ive heard of pig hunters that send their dogs in to flush out pigs then run in with a knife and finish the job

 

[elapid@]

This is what im on about. I have no problem people hunting for pest or food
A European zoo sold three of these lions to a game hunting industry in Africa.

i would much rather spend money to care for that animal then destroy it.

im not going on about guns , hey a gun is a tool (pest control) not just a weapon,

i just cant believe how some people could be proud of this , i suppose some people have different taste,
each to there own where all human.

 

[crocodile_dan]

I have heard about some reproductive practices of big cats in European Zoos which are more shocking than the above.

Surplus animals in zoos is a big issue, but I personally find it very hard to comprehend when there are big cats involved.

 

[Hamalicious]

some people do , ive heard of pig hunters that send their dogs in to flush out pigs then run in with a knife and finish the job

Good on them. I dont have a problem with that.

 

[thomasssss]

Good on them. I dont have a problem with that.

really , and yet it is probably the most inhuman way to go about it

the pig gets stressed and bit on the legs by dogs forcing it out of the scrub , then they follow through with a big knife that doesn't kill the animal instantly like a good shot from a 30.30 can and the animal dies a painful death with more suffering than what is necessary if you used a firearm and yet you have no problem with it because they got up close and personal with the animal

 

[stimigex]

really , and yet it is probably the most inhuman way to go about it

the pig gets stressed and bit on the legs by dogs forcing it out of the scrub , then they follow through with a big knife that doesn't kill the animal instantly like a good shot from a 30.30 can and the animal dies a painful death with more suffering than what is necessary if you used a firearm and yet you have no problem with it because they got up close and personal with the animal

Sorry but just by reading that statement you have no idea on dogging pigs!

In my younger years we used to run a substantial dog team, we would only ever run 2-3 on each hunt (any more and you cant control them, the rest would stay on the ute) The dogs are trained to find and hold a pig by the ear as this is the safest for the dogs, We are with the dogs at all times! once the hold the pig it is dispatched with a knife to the heart, it clean and quick!
My boys continue to hunt this way today!

I am not saying there are no cowboys out there that cause problems but the majority do not!

 

[thomasssss]

stimigex , you are right i only know a little bit about what goes on with that type of pigging , only know what ive been told

i didnt know what thats the dogs where trained to hold the pig behind the ear (which is probably more stressful to the pig in its final moments), as for the clean stab in the heart im sure that is intended to happen most times but dont tell me it doesnt go wrong every now and then (just like shooting ) and the pig is still kicking after the initial stab which would then need a follow up stab

 

[Sinners121]

stimigex , you are right i only know a little bit about what goes on with that type of pigging , only know what ive been told

i didnt know what thats the dogs where trained to hold the pig behind the ear (which is probably more stressful to the pig in its final moments), as for the clean stab in the heart im sure that is intended to happen most times but dont tell me it doesnt go wrong every now and then (just like shooting ) and the pig is still kicking after the initial stab which would then need a follow up stab

your right you dont know what you are talking about, sorry if i sound rude. from start to stop at a maximum i would say the pig is caught and killed within seconds once the dog goes the owners are right behind!!. dogging is probably the most efficient method for clearing a farm/ area. if you have ever picked up a pig you will know they squeal at anything.
you right they dont always hit the heart, but 99% of the time they do and if not it takes a second to put a second stab in.
and as you admit you only know what you have been told!!!

as with everything there are a few idiots!!!!! however the majority are ethical hunters.
this is the problem people are judging something they know nothing about and are using information they get from people that dont know or are anti's. its the equivalent to me saying we shouldn't allow anyone to drive because a few people speed and are hoons.

View attachment 262046


This is what im on about. I have no problem people hunting for pest or food
A European zoo sold three of these lions to a game hunting industry in Africa.

i would much rather spend money to care for that animal then destroy it.

im not going on about guns , hey a gun is a tool (pest control) not just a weapon,

i just cant believe how some people could be proud of this , i suppose some people have different taste,
each to there own where all human.

elapid
the people that allow this on there property often have to choices either they can have game hunting or farm. with droughts and pestilence game hunting is a more viable option. at least these animals are not going to go extinct anymore.

 

[thomasssss]

sinners121 , i hope you havent got your wires all crossed , im all for hunting far from anti hunting

 

[Sinners121]

View attachment 262046


This is what im on about. I have no problem people hunting for pest or food
A European zoo sold three of these lions to a game hunting industry in Africa.

i would much rather spend money to care for that animal then destroy it.

im not going on about guns , hey a gun is a tool (pest control) not just a weapon,

i just cant believe how some people could be proud of this , i suppose some people have different taste,
each to there own where all human.

elapid
the people that allow this on there property often have to choices either they can have game hunting or farm. with droughts and pestilence game hunting is a more viable option. at least these animals are not going to go extinct anymore. (anyway this has already been discussed)

sinners121 , i hope you havent got your wires all crossed , im all for hunting far from anti hunting

i havnt but even within the hunting community we cannot support our own when doing the right thing and it really rubs me the wrong way to be honest its why we will eventually losse everything.

 

[mungus]

some people do , ive heard of pig hunters that send their dogs in to flush out pigs then run in with a knife and finish the job

I'd like to see a pig hunter with only a knife trying to kill 100kg+ bassalt boar coming at straight at him..........!!

Killing for food or culling pests i dont have a problem with. But i do agree that going out with a rifle and killing the biggest and healthiest animal as a trophy is wrong. It doesnt make you a man because you killed an animal from 100m away that didnt even have a chance to defend itself. i say if you want a trophy, go one on one with the animal, then well see how tough you really are.

Nothing against riffle shooters, each to their own.
My personal preference for hunting is the tradional longbow [ 80lb - no sites or aiming apparatus ]
At 100m im still casually walking to my feral target :lol:
Normally never shoot further than 30 yards [ couldnt ensure a clean kill ]
If i had a riffle i would have shot my wish list 30 years ago.
With my bow i will never get there :lol:
I personally like the biggest challange and with tradional bowhunting on foot...........well the animal still
has the upper hand.
My 2 bob's worth,
Aleks.

 

[deanzy]

it is not so much they "hey look at me and this living thing i just killed" it is more like "check out the size of this bad boy".

 

[elapid@]

it is not so much they "hey look at me and this living thing i just killed" it is more like "check out the size of this bad boy".

 

[mungus]

View attachment 262659

In Australia those 2 would be considered the same as our fox problem that we have.