Tubs or displays...

[champagne]

Tubs have there place in the hobby and I kept my large collection in tubs/racks for years but since cutting back on numbers and using cages I have seen how much my coastals use every inch of there enclosure. The reason I moved away from tubs was based on wanting to create more micro climates within the enclosure so that the carpets can have greater choice on what temp/humidity they need for optimal body conditions.


I have personally observe my carpets perching and stretching out at different spots during the day and night. I believe my enclosures provide more micro climates then can be provided in a tub, giving the snake the choice of what temps it requires for optimal body temperature regulation. I think if you are keeping pythons in tubs only to look at them to clean and feed, you really need to question why you are keeping reptiles?

 

[Snowman]

Both are adequate ways to keep snakes.
All intelligence is lost when people start comparing the needs of mammals to reptiles....

 

[champagne]

Both are adequate ways to keep snakes.
All intelligence is lost when people start comparing the needs of mammals to reptiles....

snowman can you show me a tub adequate to house a fully grown coastal?

 

[imported_Varanus]

snowman can you show me a tub adequate to house a fully grown coastal?

Not having a go, but define "adequate"? Many big breeders overseas keep big, semi-aboreal pythons in the Freedom Breeder setups with no inherent problems.

I know where you're coming from here, I've never been a fan of tub systems, but I think both have there uses from a husbandry perspective (husbandry standards would be hard to maintain in a display enclosure for neonate, small species of elapids, for example). Tubs are particularly useful for maintaining large collections and likely work better in terms of a snakes overall health and well being in theses circumstances.

 

[champagne]

Not having a go, but define "adequate"? Many big breeders overseas keep big, semi-aboreal pythons in the Freedom Breeder setups with no inherent problems.

I know where you're coming from here, I've never been a fan of tub systems, but I think both have there uses from a husbandry perspective (husbandry standards would be hard to maintain in a display enclosure for neonate, small species of elapids, for example). Tubs are particularly useful for maintaining large collections and likely work better in terms of a snakes overall health and well being in theses circumstances.

I totally agree and stated that tubs do have there place in the hobby but my coastals are very arboreal and love moving around their whole enclosure perching in different temp zones within the enclosure also I find they also like to stretch out in a straight line across a branch or on the floor I haven't seen a tub that allows a 2m plus coastal to do this.

 

[imported_Varanus]

Freedom Breeder do offer some big slide out tubs suitable for larger pythons (Burmese, Retics), but, if I were keeping these species in low numbers I'd offer the tubs in combination with a larger display enclosure(s) TBH. Or give them plenty of daily exercise outside the tub.

You can also go custom fibreglass/ poly tubs if you're after something bigger or those made for other purposes like water tanks/ drinking troughs or fruit bins, maybe with a perspex viewing window cut out of one side and on a cheap metal rack from Bunnings (for example).

Then there's these from Vision (see attached), all the easy hygeine of plastic, but in "cage" form. These (and similar) are about 2M x 1.2M x 60cm, also a low profile 2.4M version, but they aren't cheap.

 

[Snowman]

snowman can you show me a tub adequate to house a fully grown coastal?

Sure.. Ever heard of google?
If Brian B from snake bytes can house full grown boa's in a rack, I doubt it would be hard to house a coastal.

I can understand keepers wanting to see them climb. I would hope most people who keep racks pull snakes out for a wonder... But do they need it? What happens to a coastal that doesn't climb everyday? I would imagine some loss of muscle at least. But we know there are Morelia soilota species that exist on islands with out trees to climb.

 

[schoona]

I'm only new to keeping, but I only see the "need" for tubs when keeping 20 plus herps... if you aren't at that number then keeping them in suitable, "lifelike" enclosures I think is the fairest on the animal. Sure they might "seem" happy in tubs but eventually I think the long term health (can't "measure" mental health) and size considerations should afford a proper enclosure.

That and it's something to be proud of, nice snake in nice enclosure that just looks tidy.

My BHP handles relatively easy, and he's in a modified fish tank at the moment. Will be constructing a tank to suit full size and hopefully will suit keeping a second BHP. It's an "expensive" hobby (not just getting a tin of PAL out for a dog) and takes a bit of time up, to do it properly its not a bad thing

 

[Jarrod_H]

Sure.. Ever heard of google?
If Brian B from snake bytes can house full grown boa's in a rack, I doubt it would be hard to house a coastal.

Not having a go at you but it just looks wrong to me.

 

[imported_Varanus]

If you allow for a decent thermal gradient, some daily exercise and take into account that pythons are mostly sedentary by nature and prefer tight fitting hides as opposed to airy ones with a view, I can see no problems TBH.

 

[Snowman]

Not having a go at you but it just looks wrong to me.

Yes I'm sure you know more about snakes, their needs and care than Brian
Too often people think of what they need or other animals they are familiar with need. If you truly understood snakes like Brian then you'd see it's a non issue.

 

[Snowman]

No not at all.

Sometimes you have to question what you see and why someone like Brian and many other snake experts do things. Most of the time people either look at things with an anthropomorphic view or a lack of understanding.
I doubt Scales n Tails would fly Brian over for festivals and lectures if he was a shmuck.

- - - Updated - - -

From a personal view, I like to see my snakes through glass. But that is more about me than the snakes.

 

[Snowman]

Part of snakes anatomy is that they do not need to stretch right out. That's kind of basic biology of a snake and you should know that much if you keep them.
But like I said to the other guy You'd have to be kidding yourself if you think that the likes of Brian and other major keepers and breeders don't care about the well being of their animals. They love them! They just have a more advanced understanding than you at this point in time.

 

[Newhere]

I don't see the problem with tubs for smaller snakes but I've seen some coastals on this site that you would never be able to fit in a tub and provide a thermal gradient.

 

[longqi]

Experts mentioned are farmers
Any farmer needs to produce the maximum amount of produce from the smallest area in the shortest time
That is why they use racks

Snakebytes as an already mentioned example is dedicated to making money and because they are a business that attitude is correct for them
For them racks are perfect

Every animal on Earth including humans can exist in less than optimum conditions

POWs in concentration camps fed slept and bred
So does that mean concentration camps are good for humans??

Small capacity containers are useful to house some young reptiles

 

[Snowman]

Experts mentioned are farmers
Any farmer needs to produce the maximum amount of produce from the smallest area in the shortest time
That is why they use racks

Snakebytes as an already mentioned example is dedicated to making money and because they are a business that attitude is correct for them
For them racks are perfect

Every animal on Earth including humans can exist in less than optimum conditions

POWs in concentration camps fed slept and bred
So does that mean concentration camps are good for humans??

Small capacity containers are useful to house some young reptiles

Well if John W, Rick Shine or the likes come out and say racks aren't suitable Id listen. But they haven't and don't. I find the experts are the best examples to follow rather than forum opinions.

As a side note do you really think the casualties in POW camps compare in percentages to deaths, disease and sickness for reptiles kept in tubs? As per your theory that would indeed be bad "business"!

 

[Snowman]

Godwin’s Law is an internet adage that is derived from one of the earliest bits of Usenet wisdoms, which goes “if you mention Adolf Hitler or Nazis within a discussion thread, you’ve automatically ended whatever discussion you were taking part in.”
POW is close enough I agree...

Yes I believe all snake keepers would exercise their snakes. It's just part of keeping to get them out (usually when cleaning) for a wonder and a good look over the specimen.

So are you trying to tell me people who have written the books on carpet pythons, Australian pythons etc don't use tubs? I hope not because you would be wrong

 

[saintanger]

ok, from someone who keeps 31 pythons of all different species - childrens, spotteds gtp, womas, jungles, coastals, md, darwins, water pythons, bhp's and bredli's and also dragons, lizards, geckos and turtles. i don't use tubs with my pythons and never have, tubs are fine for hatchies in my opinion. but with larger pythons i notice they use all the room in there enclosures. especially climbing species should not be kept in tubs.

tubs are only recomended so highly by big breeders as they keep large quantities of reptiles and produce large quantities every year and if they had to use enclosures then they would not have the space to keep so many pythons, therefore they would not make as much money.

 

[dragonlover1]

okay,I have read all the comments and I admit upfront I have never kept any snakes...but it just seems cruel to me to keep something in a tiny box with no exercise or anything to interest it.I would assume that any creature would prefer to do whatever it normally does in nature.
Just because it is capable of breeding in said tiny box doesn't mean it is an ideal life (and I am not denigrating people like Brian Barzyk etc.I know they are passionate) I also know that snakes are not as intelligent as humans so the POW thing doesn't work for me either but I like to keep my reptiles in something that somehow replicates their normal environment ( although somewhat smaller),in conclusion I would say that tubs and racks would be okay for hatchlings and juveniles but I think it would be ideal if they moved to bigger enclosures as they grew.

 

[andynic07]

I think that tubs do not allow a snake to exercise enough and they need to be taken out for exercise for a couple of reasons. Firstly it is good for muscle tone for a snake to move around and go over things rather than just minimal movement on a flat surface. Secondly I am a firm believer that enrichment is not crucial for a snake but is a bonus and my snakes are pets so I do not mind giving them extra. The last reason is I think movement encourages waste out of a snake and what I think that does is stops more fluid being extracted from the feces causing it to dry out and possibly causing blockages. These are the reasons that I choose enclosures over tubs but these things can be overcome easily with tubs and probably don't make a big difference to the snake anyway. I also doubt that a huge operation like snakebites would have time to exercise all of their snakes each week as there is so many.