Tubs or displays...

[beastcreature]

I don't believe from a health perspective it makes a huge difference but a less stimulating environment can mean less activity & a delay in bowel movements which with Greens, due to their incidence of prolapse is pretty important.

Tubs are a matter of convenience. If cost, space & cleaning weren't an issue I can't see how any keeper would deny their animal more room.

 

[saintanger]

I don't believe from a health perspective it makes a huge difference but a less stimulating environment can mean less activity & a delay in bowel movements which with Greens in particular due to their incidence of prolapse is pretty important.

Tubs are a matter of convenience. If cost, space & cleaning weren't an issue I can't see how any keeper would deny their animal more room.

if cost, space and cleaning are an issue then maybe some people should not own snakes. we all tell newbies if they can not afford an enclosure or do not have space and time not to buy reptiles.

whats convenient to us is not always convenient to our reptiles.

i think all pythons have alot to gain from living in an enclosure that is more mentally and physically stimulating, so why deny it from them?

 

[beastcreature]

if cost, space and cleaning are an issue then maybe some people should not own snakes. we all tell newbies if they can not afford an enclosure or do not have space and time not to buy reptiles.

whats convenient to us is not always convenient to our reptiles.

i think all pythons have alot to gain from living in an enclosure that is more mentally and physically stimulating, so why deny it from them?

A nice ideology but not at all easy to police.

 

[Wing_Nut]

If your snake is pacing around the enclosure every night maybe there is a husbandry issue there to? Maybe it's the pretty substrate that is used to make the enclosure aesthetically pleasing that is causing the inhabitant discomfort. What about snakes who escape, or enclosures that are wonderful to look at, but given the chance the inhabitant will vacate end up in what we would consider a terrible place. And the prey we feed, sure if they were meant to have it, Mother Nature would have certainly provided them with it. The reality is that our captive snakes live in environments that's are entirely foreign, and at best, there is a lot of guess work involved in a large majority of conclusions drawn in this thread. Every method should be embraced, investigated, understood and applied as needed.

What I find fascinating with this discussion is that the issue is so polarising. The reality is that every animal is different and there are many techniques that provide a good captive environment for our reptiles, and those who show such strong opposition to a housing technique and rule it out absolutely really are self serving idealists. More so those who would categorically discount the concept with no personal experience.

In my experience, and I will use the adult imbricata I keep as example, six adults appear to thrive in large vivariums, and four have always struggled in anything but large tubs. I have never had a snake from hatchling to adult ever fail to thrive in a tub. In general I've found Antaresia really do well in tubs, better than any other enclosure. The rest I keep and maintain do well in a variety of enclosures.

To answer the OP, in my experience the best practice is to see what your animals teach you and go with what works best for them and you, because at the end of the day, you take care of your animals and what you do must work for you.

The activity levels of my reptiles seems to be affected mostly by feeding regime and the positioning of hides.

Wing_Nut

 

[andynic07]

If your snake is pacing around the enclosure every night maybe there is a husbandry issue there to? Maybe it's the pretty substrate that is used to make the enclosure aesthetically pleasing that is causing the inhabitant discomfort. What about snakes who escape, or enclosures that are wonderful to look at, but given the chance the inhabitant will vacate end up in what we would consider a terrible place. And the prey we feed, sure if they were meant to have it, Mother Nature would have certainly provided them with it. The reality is that our captive snakes live in environments that's are entirely foreign, and at best, there is a lot of guess work involved in a large majority of conclusions drawn in this thread. Every method should be embraced, investigated, understood and applied as needed.

What I find fascinating with this discussion is that the issue is so polarising. The reality is that every animal is different and there are many techniques that provide a good captive environment for our reptiles, and those who show such strong opposition to a housing technique and rule it out absolutely really are self serving idealists. More so those who would categorically discount the concept with no personal experience.

In my experience, and I will use the adult imbricata I keep as example, six adults appear to thrive in large vivariums, and four have always struggled in anything but large tubs. I have never had a snake from hatchling to adult ever fail to thrive in a tub. In general I've found Antaresia really do well in tubs, better than any other enclosure. The rest I keep and maintain do well in a variety of enclosures.

To answer the OP, in my experience the best practice is to see what your animals teach you and go with what works best for them and you, because at the end of the day, you take care of your animals and what you do must work for you.

The activity levels of my reptiles seems to be affected mostly by feeding regime and the positioning of hides.

Wing_Nut

I agree mostly with what you are saying apart for everyone being polarised. The part that I mostly agree with is the last sentence. I certainly do leave a while between feeds for all of my snakes to encourage hunting before their next feed as some snakes can be lazy. I more so brought this technique in since owning a GTP who are renewed for sitting in the one spot and then can develop what some regard as being caused by laziness "tail hanging" which my snake has yet displayed. I guess letting my snakes get to the stage that they hunt around at night for days or even a week looking for food may be considered cruel by some but I see it an important part of me keeping snakes and exercising them and feel that this is best carried out in an enclosure with more space and varying levels. I still think tubs can be used but somehow the snakes in my opinion should get some exercise. I also think racks are the preferred method for young snakes as it is a click clack container on a large scale.

I also think that apart from the enrichment and movement that a tub is an ideal location for a snake as they usually find a hidden away location squashed into somewhere and feel safer where they are not out in the open.

I had never really thought about each snake being different and your story interests me but saying that I have found all of my snakes seem to me to be doing fine. They eat really well and have good muscle tone and as of yet in the 5 or so years of keeping have not needed a vet visit touch wood.

 

[longqi]

Topic doesnt need to be polarising at all

Big breeders NEED to use small containers
That is the best thing for THEM
Economies of scale, disease control, labour input and space required makes small sterile containers the best option for them
Vast majority of their snakes are kept by them for the shortest possible time

Hobbyists were in a different game once
They kept a few snakes in displays
Most of the time the displays were to show off their pride and joys
Numbers of reptiles were limited because of spacial requirements

Now some hobbyists are simply copying what big breeders initiated
They use the FACT that big breeders do this to justify themselves doing it

Godwins Law is totally irrelevant in this particular case
POWs existed fed and bred
Those are facts that cannot be changed

Nearly every animal on Earth will breed in less than optimum conditions
That is because of a thing called Survival Instinct

Here is a simple question for anybody to answer
"If someone gave you $10.000.000 tomorrow would you accept it"
Conditions are
"From now on you can keep a maximum of 10 reptiles
Regardless of breeding that number cannot change except for a 3 month period while hatchlings or older snakes are sold"
Question is
"Would your 10 snakes be kept in the smallest possible containers??""

 

[Wing_Nut]

The correlation between tubs and the smallest possible container in my opinion is a very narrow view on the issue. Not all tubs are the "smallest possible area" but because they can be orientated in a shelving type system they can allow relatively large floor space for the animals in a relative small space in your snake room.

I certainly agree the game has changed, and the more the hobby grows the more it will continue to evolve and the more varied and refined approaches will become.

Without a doubt I would accept $10 million, and I would keep my reptiles pretty much the same as I do.

 

[Snowman]

Topic doesnt need to be polarising at all

Godwins Law is totally irrelevant in this particular case
POWs existed fed and bred
Those are facts that cannot be changed

[MENTION=20112]longqi[/MENTION]
I find myself usually agreeing with you and respect your experience and knowledge. But I find the whole POW comparison very odd.
Lets look at some of the FACTS of POW in WWII.

-Stalag 359B: An epidemic of dysentery led to the murder of some 6,000 Red Army prisoners between September 21–28, 1941 (3,261 of them on the first day), conducted by the notorious Police Battalion 306

-Stalag II-B: The construction of the second camp, Lager-Ost, started in June 1941 to accommodate the large numbers of Soviet prisoners taken in Operation Barbarossa. In November 1941 a typhoid fever epidemic broke out in the Lager-Ost; it lasted until March 1942 and an estimated 45,000 prisoners died and were buried in mass graves. The camp administration did not start any preventive measures until some German soldiers became infected.

Stalag III-C: In July 1941 Soviet prisoners captured during Operation Barbarossa arrived. They were held in separated facilities and suffered severe conditions and disease. The majority of the prisoners (up to 12,000) were killed, starved to death or died due to disease.

Stalag IV-B: In July about 11,000 Soviet soldiers, and some officers, arrived. By April 1942 only 3,279 remained; the rest had died from malnutrition and a typhus epidemic caused by the deplorable sanitary conditions. Their bodies were buried in mass graves. After April 1942 more Soviet prisoners arrived and died just as rapidly. At the end of 1942 10,000 reasonably healthy Soviet prisoners were transferred to Belgium to work in the coal mines; the rest, suffering from tuberculosis, continued to die at the rate 10-20 per day.

Stalag VI-K: Between 40,000 and 60,000 prisoners died, mostly buried in three mass graves. A Soviet war cemetery is still in existence, containing about 200 named graves.

Stalag VIII-E: The first Soviets arrived in July 1941; by June 1942 more than 100,000 prisoners were crowded into this camp. As a result of starvation and disease, mainly typhoid fever and tuberculosis, close to half of them died before the end of the war.

If snakes suffered from confined space just like humans the above would be true and your POW example would make sense. Though we don't see disease, starvation, malnutrition, bad sanitary conditions buy breeders and keepers using tubs. It would be bad business for breeders/farmers in particular would it not?

If we take our emotional response out of it, what are we really looking at in regards to tubs?

I think the hobby has progressed and while we enjoy seeing our display enclosures spread about our houses. We also enjoy our breeding projects, which require similar set up to commercial breeders to maintain hold backs and stock with traits that hobbyists are trying to line breed.
It would be fair to say we all keep for different reasons. The number one rule in all cases though is a healthy animal. It seems that animals being sold from farming facilities and animals kept in racks are indeed healthy.

 

[critterguy]

If for sales and won't be in them long I agree with tubs, hence why I agreed with them for bubs, but if keeping a long time then displays or larger tubs with lids/a side modified with flyscreen so as they get natural light and better ventilation.

 

[longqi]

This snake cannot even move properly
The depth of the container means it cannot even coil up if it wanted to

Perfect for a breeder
Good for a hobbyist who says they love snakes??

 

[Snowman]

This snake cannot even move properly
The depth of the container means it cannot even coil up if it wanted to

Perfect for a breeder
Good for a hobbyist who says they love snakes??

Are you saying hobbyists aren't allowed to breed and have breeding projects?

 

[RedFox]

Just because an animal is in a tub doesn't mean it has less exercise than if it was kept in an enclosure. Based on my very limited experience I've found no difference in the amount of activity of my womas, since they have being in tubs.

They still display the same digging, active hunting, drinking, bowel movements, hiding, etc, as they did in enclosures.

I've found that since keeping some of mine in tubs, it has become easier to hook my problem handlers out, and I have a few of those now, for an explore and exercise. This has made it much easier to check for possible health issue and check after shedding.

If I had $10mill I would probably keep all my pythons in tubs much like the ones below, except for my favourite who would have a naturalistic enclosure built into a wall for my own pleasure, not his.

 

[longqi]

Are you saying hobbyists aren't allowed to breed and have breeding projects?

No Snowman
I have never even suggested that
I would never suggest that

That photo was put on this thread
Then people tried to justify it
For big breeders/farmers there is NO justification needed because they have purely commercial enterprises

But for hobbyists who say they love snakes that comparatively tiny enclosure is too sterile and small for that snake

If its all a money game fair enough
Do your best to jam as many as you can into a small area

But for anyone who loves snakes they deserve
room to move within thermal gradients
at least one hide
water

In that photo and thousands of other photo from commercial breeders they have
no room to move
no hides

 

[champagne]

Just because an animal is in a tub doesn't mean it has less exercise than if it was kept in an enclosure. Based on my very limited experience I've found no difference in the amount of activity of my womas, since they have being in tubs.

They still display the same digging, active hunting, drinking, bowel movements, hiding, etc, as they did in enclosures.

I've found that since keeping some of mine in tubs, it has become easier to hook my problem handlers out, and I have a few of those now, for an explore and exercise. This has made it much easier to check for possible health issue and check after shedding.

If I had $10mill I would probably keep all my pythons in tubs much like the ones below, except for my favourite who would have a naturalistic enclosure built into a wall for my own pleasure, not his.

are womas an arboreal species? tubs have there place in the hobby and if sized correctly can provide excellent environment but who actually uses a 4ft x 2 ft x 2ft tub?

 

[Luke_G]

Just because an animal is in a tub doesn't mean it has less exercise than if it was kept in an enclosure. Based on my very limited experience I've found no difference in the amount of activity of my womas, since they have being in tubs.

They still display the same digging, active hunting, drinking, bowel movements, hiding, etc, as they did in enclosures.

I've found that since keeping some of mine in tubs, it has become easier to hook my problem handlers out, and I have a few of those now, for an explore and exercise. This has made it much easier to check for possible health issue and check after shedding.

If I had $10mill I would probably keep all my pythons in tubs much like the ones below, except for my favourite who would have a naturalistic enclosure built into a wall for my own pleasure, not his.

Where do you get the Handi Bin's from? or can you point me in the direction of the website. Thanks

 

[Snowman]

No Snowman
I have never even suggested that
I would never suggest that

That photo was put on this thread
Then people tried to justify it
For big breeders/farmers there is NO justification needed because they have purely commercial enterprises

But for hobbyists who say they love snakes that comparatively tiny enclosure is too sterile and small for that snake

If its all a money game fair enough
Do your best to jam as many as you can into a small area

But for anyone who loves snakes they deserve
room to move within thermal gradients
at least one hide
water

In that photo and thousands of other photo from commercial breeders they have
no room to move
no hides

Yes I think common sense has to play a role too. I cant imagine putting a python or snake in a tub that wasn't adequately suited size wise to the occupant.
I think too many people who don't know what they are talking about post rubbish too though. Like the bloke that went through and deleted all his past posts when they were found to be full of erroneous anthropomorphic assumptions.

 

[RedFox]

snowman can you show me a tub adequate to house a fully grown coastal?

I'm not snowman but yes I can show you links to tubs.

are womas an arboreal species? tubs have there place in the hobby and if sized correctly can provide excellent environment but who actually uses a 4ft x 2 ft x 2ft tub?

I never said womas were aboreal, so I'm a bit confused as to how that is relevant??? In this thread I've only spoken about my personal experiences.

To answer the second part, I don't know many people in the hobby so I can't answer for others but I personally would and that's why I added a pic of such a tub in answer to Longqi's question.

I also posted those pics to show that keeping pythons in tubs doesn't have to mean a large animal being kept in a lunch box, like most of these posts have inferred. I agree that people do keep large animals in tubs that are IMO too small and have never said otherwise.

Where do you get the Handi Bin's from? or can you point me in the direction of the website. Thanks

I'll send you a PM.

 

[champagne]

I'm not snowman but yes I can show you links to tubs.



I never said womas were aboreal, so I'm a bit confused as to how that is relevant??? In this thread I've only spoken about my personal experiences.

To answer the second part, I don't know many people in the hobby so I can't answer for others but I personally would and that's why I added a pic of such a tub in answer to Longqi's question.




I'll send you a PM.

you were going on about how you house womas in tubs and the main problem with tubs is they don't have enough height, so of course your womas will be fine in tubs....

- - - Updated - - -

Where do you get the Handi Bin's from? or can you point me in the direction of the website. Thanks

Google 'the plastic man' ex large tubs

 

[Luke_G]

Thanks. I keep nearly 100% of my collection( Mostly Elapids) in tubs... I have found that as long as the snake can have privacy, access to thermal gradient and there cage kept hygenically clean ( easier to do in tubs) i have minimal to no health issues. I personally will always keep my animals in tubs as i believe its the best way to keep them. I dont usually comment on this site anymore as too many people have become experts owning a snake for only a few years. So i believe that everyone will have there own opinion regardless of the experience of others.

Cheers Luke

 

[andynic07]

Just because an animal is in a tub doesn't mean it has less exercise than if it was kept in an enclosure. Based on my very limited experience I've found no difference in the amount of activity of my womas, since they have being in tubs.

They still display the same digging, active hunting, drinking, bowel movements, hiding, etc, as they did in enclosures.

I've found that since keeping some of mine in tubs, it has become easier to hook my problem handlers out, and I have a few of those now, for an explore and exercise. This has made it much easier to check for possible health issue and check after shedding.

If I had $10mill I would probably keep all my pythons in tubs much like the ones below, except for my favourite who would have a naturalistic enclosure built into a wall for my own pleasure, not his.

I think the concept that most people are against and definitely what I am referring to as not enough space for exercise is when the smaller space saving tubs are used, if the tub is roughly the same size as an enclosure then the point is mute and there is no difference. I do think that the intent of the discussion is the smaller breeding racks not the pull out enclosures that you use for your snakes. I would like to ask though would you use a tub half the size that you use?