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I think the concept that most people are against and definitely what I am referring to as not enough space for exercise is when the smaller space saving tubs are used, if the tub is roughly the same size as an enclosure then the point is mute and there is no difference. I do think that the intent of the discussion is the smaller breeding racks not the pull out enclosures that you use for your snakes. I would like to ask though would you use a tub half the size that you use?

My pythons are pets so I like keeping them in largish enclosures/tubs for my own enjoyment but if there are no health problem associated with keeping in smaller tubs than I wouldn't have a problem with others doing it.

I believe health of my pets is the most important thing. If I was to keep them in smaller tubs and I noticed a lack of muscle tone, abnormal weight change, health problems, or a change in behaviour I would increase the size. To me that seems fairly common sense.
 
My pythons are pets so I like keeping them in largish enclosures/tubs for my own enjoyment but if there are no health problem associated with keeping in smaller tubs than I wouldn't have a problem with others doing it.

I believe health of my pets is the most important thing. If I was to keep them in smaller tubs and I noticed a lack of muscle tone, abnormal weight change, health problems, or a change in behaviour I would increase the size. To me that seems fairly common sense.

Exactly and that's what it is all about. I fail to see why this concept is so hard for some people to grasp?
 
Here's some things to look for regarding this.

1: Is the animal happy?
2: Is it healthy with good muscle?
3: Is it feeding on a regular basis?
4 is it toileting on a regular (For a snake) basis?
5: Does it have adequate thermal gradients required for it's species?

At the end of the day those are the things that matter. Sure it might be happier in a larger enclosure, it would look better in it. But, that being said if it's happy and healthy being in a tub then the tub will be fine.

After taking into account the animals well being it then comes down to personal preference. If you like being able to make the enclosure the center of a room, or you like to mimic it's natural environment then awesome. If you have a pretty large collection then tubs might be better
 
Where can I get tubs this big?
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Those things are awesome! Bet they aren't cheap, but great idea.
 
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i prefer displays, looks way better and provides the reptile with a ore natural and comfortable set up to call home. no one would want to be locked in a boring room their whole life.. so dont make any pet do the same. just bought a bigger display. will upload pics soon of setup
 
Those things are awesome! Bet they aren't cheap, but great idea.

That 1's a 1500 litre, the 3000 litre 1's I think are around the $3k mark. To expensive to house a boring Tiger snake. (I have 4, swapped 2 black cockatoo's for them).
 
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A 3000 poly tank from Bunnings is only $700 and you could cut it in half to make two and then cut a panel out for the clear viewing part.
 
i prefer displays, looks way better and provides the reptile with a ore natural and comfortable set up to call home. no one would want to be locked in a boring room their whole life.. so dont make any pet do the same. just bought a bigger display. will upload pics soon of setup

How is an enclosure more natural than a tub?

I always like looking at people's setup so will look forward to your pics. :)
 
Nobody buys a snake (even their first) to put it away in a tub. May as well throw it in the cutlery draw under the sink? You're spending good money on (hopefully) nice specimens, why not satisfy yourself and the snake by using a "proper" display. the stacked melamine units that could take 6-8 diamonds or carpets is surely plenty suitable for multiples of snakes, you can observe/check up on, they aren't that hard to keep clean and can provide all required to keep (water, hides, log for climbing, temp gradient) the snake happy (to a better degree) than a tub.

I'm sure all the references to brian are correct, but if that retic wants to sit in its hide for 6 months and not come out, it can. If it wants to come out, stretch itself, coil up or anything other than just lay there, it would have the option to if in a thought out enclosure.

The reference to brian is pretty irrelevant especially using those big snakes. we dont get them here (anything that size really) so the justification for people with "a couple of woma's" or a "couple of jungles" is a cop out really? If you didn't have a 20m2 area for a retic and used a tub, can kind of understand (but then why acquire a retic to put away for 23 hours 45 minutes a day). a couple of m2 of floor space to appreciate woma's/carpets/jungles/BHP's...well thats something you have to afford as well.
 
Nobody buys a snake (even their first) to put it away in a tub. May as well throw it in the cutlery draw under the sink? You're spending good money on (hopefully) nice specimens, why not satisfy yourself and the snake by using a "proper" display. the stacked melamine units that could take 6-8 diamonds or carpets is surely plenty suitable for multiples of snakes, you can observe/check up on, they aren't that hard to keep clean and can provide all required to keep (water, hides, log for climbing, temp gradient) the snake happy (to a better degree) than a tub.

I'm sure all the references to brian are correct, but if that retic wants to sit in its hide for 6 months and not come out, it can. If it wants to come out, stretch itself, coil up or anything other than just lay there, it would have the option to if in a thought out enclosure.

The reference to brian is pretty irrelevant especially using those big snakes. we dont get them here (anything that size really) so the justification for people with "a couple of woma's" or a "couple of jungles" is a cop out really? If you didn't have a 20m2 area for a retic and used a tub, can kind of understand (but then why acquire a retic to put away for 23 hours 45 minutes a day). a couple of m2 of floor space to appreciate woma's/carpets/jungles/BHP's...well thats something you have to afford as well.

Everyone has different reasons for keeping snakes. I think that is the first thing we have to acknowledge when looking at housing for snakes.

I use mostly enclosures, but I'm breeding imbricata that most of Australia has not had much to do with. We have started with wild animals and each clutch we get 15-25 eggs. From those even in the first generation of captive bred we are seeing some reduced patterns and strange patterns etc. So we get a lot of hold backs that we intend to grow to adults and breed with each other and back to the parents with the goal of producing non hybrids that are very interesting visually... (I'm sure with time the imbricata of WA will see similar patterns and results of generations of line breeding the other MS sub species over east and around the world). A few generations of line breeding and you just don't have enough space to house all of them in display type enclosures. And to be honest what is the point if you feel tubs are adequate and you are using adequate size tubs.

I'm guessing there are thousands of Australians now who are into line breeding as a hobby and are keeping hold backs and are starting to use set ups that have been proven to work.

People will do the same with stimi's, womas etc etc....

Sure some people are content just to have 10-20 adult snakes. Other people are working on something bigger with a goal in mind and want to keep many more snakes. If you think keeping a snake in a box with a window is rewarding that's fine. Others find breeding, keeping and maintaining a large collection with the goal producing something different equally as rewarding.

Like @RedFox said she gets as much enjoyment using tubs as she did with displays. And she has noted no difference in their well being or behaviour. She does however get more time to have them out and about which is always the fun part of playing with our pets.

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Also I was the one who mentioned snake bytes. Not for the species they keep, but rather the way the keep them and the size of tubs available. *I thought that was obvious from my wording, but I guess not.
 
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Good points in there

I interpreted (it's the internet remember) it in a way of "Brian uses them so they must be fine for me" kind of idea. Which is why I noted out his collection is vastly different (obviously a building dedicated to the "hobby" and also the types he is keeping (big things like a retic). If you have a few adult snakes, thats a very different situation and as such think they should be in an "enclosure" (something more advanced than moulded PVC).

As a development from your point, the "interest" and "reward" in the hobby for you is the up and coming differences with your MS, why hide these "new and interesting" products away in a tub. Years and years of line breeding stashed in a tub doesn't make sense?

Sure the intricacies of larger collections may require the use of tubs to a degree, but over the lifetime of the snake, surely there is a better option. You're only holding back for a year or 2 to strengthen the bloodline then moving them on? I guess in a "rotation" there will always be a new lot of holdbacks which means the tubs will always be filled?

But yeah....seems like a waste to have an "impressive" snake (subjective), stashed in a tub. May as well have a rubber snake too
 
Good points in there

I interpreted (it's the internet remember) it in a way of "Brian uses them so they must be fine for me" kind of idea. Which is why I noted out his collection is vastly different (obviously a building dedicated to the "hobby" and also the types he is keeping (big things like a retic). If you have a few adult snakes, thats a very different situation and as such think they should be in an "enclosure" (something more advanced than moulded PVC).

As a development from your point, the "interest" and "reward" in the hobby for you is the up and coming differences with your MS, why hide these "new and interesting" products away in a tub. Years and years of line breeding stashed in a tub doesn't make sense?

There isn't years and years of breeding yet. Maybe a few generations. They aren't really stashed away. When you have dedicated reptile rooms to house your animals, they are generally out of sight anyway. Whether they are in a tub or in a viv, when I go into the room, everything gets a look at. Sure many in the vivs are hiding and many in the tubs are hiding. I see both out and about and acting the same as each other all the time.

I guess because space and time becomes an issue. If you believe that the appropriate sized tub will house the specimen well then it means you can keep more of the ones you have bred and want to re-breed and you have a larger project base to work with. It means cleaning is quicker and easier and inspecting your collecting is a lot quicker. Don't get me wrong, like I said I use enclosures mostly. But tubs are very good for larger collections.



Sure the intricacies of larger collections may require the use of tubs to a degree, but over the lifetime of the snake, surely there is a better option.

If you think about it from a snakes perspective rather than what a human needs or what a mammal needs tubs aren't really a worse option. You have to select the right sized tubs and set it up appropriately for the type of specimen needed to be housed. The requirements are no less important in a tub as they are in an enclosure.

You're only holding back for a year or 2 to strengthen the bloodline then moving them on? I guess in a "rotation" there will always be a new lot of holdbacks which means the tubs will always be filled?

No its not holding back just a year or two. To try and breed similar traits and patterns we are talking about keeping multi generations for a long long time. There will be some rotation, but you also have to "prove out" genetic traits and traits that are not passed on at all. So you need to keep a few generations to breed back against etc.
So as well as the older hold backs you are adding new ones each year. This is where utilising space efficiently comes into play with people who enjoy breeding with a goal in mind.



But yeah....seems like a waste to have an "impressive" snake (subjective), stashed in a tub. May as well have a rubber snake too

Generally you don't just have one impressive snake. You'll have a heap of them. I don't think anyone who uses racks don't have a few display vivs scattered around the house for the joy of observation. I'm sure some people rotate animals in their displays too. So you might have 10 nice snakes out on display and another 30 - 100000 in tubs. I think you might be thinking from the perspective of a smaller amount of animals. And to be honest I don't know anyone with just a few animals who use tubs. Tubs seem to come into play when you find yourself spending too much time making 20 enclosures look pretty, too much time washing poop and glass on enclosures, and you want to best utilise the space you have available, whilst still providing your animals with the essentials that they need.

*also a rubber snake cant be used to produce the desired progeny you are keeping all the snakes for. Again it comes down to enjoying the process of line breeding as opposed to someone with only a few snakes who doesn't breed but just enjoys having a cool pet to look at and play with. For me I think the best of both worlds is the way to go ;)


answered above in green.

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you can set a enclosure up more naturally than a tub.. common sense says that

There is nothing natural about a wooden box and glass. Even a dead branch or substrate. If you want to go natural then the wild is the only place for your critters.

Sure to a "human" it may appear to look natural. But fake leaves and substrates that are made from trees are not part of their natural environment. People make very pretty enclosures that are very visually appealing to humans. But to the snake there is no difference if he has a card board box or a hide that looks like a rock.
 
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If you look at some plastic containers they have been set up just as well as any vivarium

It could be the most expensive fibreglass and lexon vivarium ever made and still be too small for a particular snake

If you read my replies in this thread I always say container rather than tub rub or lunch box
Because the construction material of that container doesnt matter

This is definitely a case of size does matter

quote snowman] But to the snake there is no difference if he has a card board box or a hide that looks like a rock.[unquote]

Totally agree so long as there is a hide for most species
Pity snakebytes dont see it the same way
 
Keep elapids if you want something fun.

My elapid (devis banded snake) is lazier than my pythons. I find that my woma will spend a lot of time moving around her enclosure, My darwin rarely moves around his enclosure, and my jungle spends a lotof her time on her perch, moving around here and there.
 
Those things are awesome! Bet they aren't cheap, but great idea.

No sorry mate... Still not high enough IMO, how much experience do you have keeping coastals in WA? Maybe just comment on reptiles you actually keep?

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IMO if the snake needs to be removed for "exercise" then the cage is too small, unfortunately the hobby has changed and it's moving more towards breeding the latest morph.
 
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