GTP thoughts

[Serpentes]

That's some good info Dan, cheers. Do you have any reference material on the basis for colour changes?
S.

 

[BROWNS]

99.9% of all Australian green python have a white vertebral line. It is 50/50 if the line is broken or unbroken and is most prominant in the posteroir of the animal, tapering towards the head.

Some very old individuals have a blue/purple line, however this is rare. Young animals which have recently undergone OCC have few vertebral spots which are often yellow (these become a solid line as the animal matures).

As mentioned earlier in the thread, juvenile aussies often have a strong white vertebral stripe becoming more prominant with age.

Australian animals all have varying degrees of blue.

When an animal scars, the scar beomes blue. Young greens have blue markings that were red rosettes when the individual was a juvenile.

Many females which, I presume, have produced a clutch that season have large amounts of blue on the flanks and especiialy on the underside of the head and often look more blue than green. The blue is very pale, but they are still green snakes. It is unknown to what extent they retain this blue.

Blue colouring appears to be a nutrient deficiency and hormonal. Mny malnourished animals are bright blue with green heads and tails, as the reamining nutrients are stored in the extremeties. It is likely that some part of the diet is lacking and they can no longer produce the yellow pigment to make green, therefore the animal is blue?

The underbelly of juvenile snakes is always white and only becomes yellow on older animals. Yellow begins in the anteriorventral surface and very old animals all have bright yellow,blue and white bellies near the tail.

Having said all this, there are always variations, so take it all with a grain of salt, however these are certainly the vast majority oif cases.

This is not to say that 'colour' is in any way a distingusher of ''''race''' - every population of green python can have huge variation so you could never be 100% sure sure of local unless you nab it yourself.

Hope this helps,
Dan

This certainly doesn't seem to be others opinions who are working with Native greens,even earlier Waterrat mentioned the vertebral stripe is in fact a rarety rather than being common.There's many views and opinions however as many of you may know that G Gowes greens which are natives are in the hands of URS now and still no luck with breeding them suspected to be too old but aren't or don't look like the 99.9% of native greens as mentioned above.They're very large for Native Aussie greens and have a few white dots which doesn't configure to what many describe as typical Aussies as mentioned above and from what I've seen A Hemens produces similar animals meant to be Natives but how will you really know?Also waterrat seems to produce animals without the full stripe etc yet at least he can back up his claims with a copy of a permit to collect 2 Native greens,it was posted in another thread but I can't seem to find it.I personally would love and am prepared to pay for TRUE PURE NATIVE AUSTRALIAN GREEN TREE PYTHONS However I'd want to be 100% sure they are Natives with some proof to back it up as they do vary quite a bit and it's not the $$$$ it's the guaranteed PURE AUSSIES I would like to keep with enough proof provided as possible that they are Natives as mentioned above many puresw don't fit the stereotype given by many such as DanN!

i have a good idea now on who's producing pure Aussie greens and will purchase from the ones who can prove the animals are natives or not ,not just going on looks etc..

 

[BROWNS]

Hey Serpentes just wondering why you have a leucistic animal in your avatar yet hate mutations such as albinism etc?????Just a mild observation which probably means nothing at all??

 

[Serpentes]

Browns-
1. DanN knows what he is talking about regarding herpetofauna. I have been assured this!

2. Most importantly, your question to me has me in stitches. Maybe I need to change it! That's a pendant I carved from bone, I wear it sometimes. Such a hypocrite, me! Anyway, I don't hate albinism, I just don't find it desirable. I've said elsewhere that I'd keep an albino snake if it couldn't be moved on. Poor lil' mutants.

 

[BROWNS]

lol good carving looks like some sort of leucistic snake,I'd be having a good laugh to lol

I have to say I had thought much the same about the points Dan provide yet others seem to have different views and claim to have quite a lot of experience,it's just a matter of who do you believe at the end of the day unless you yourself have gone and done thr fieldwork needed to provide accurate information?

 

[Serpentes]

DanN has done the fieldwork, to the best of my knowledge!

 

[Mayhem]

I'm sure that I've read somewhere in a reputable book or paper that the Merauke GTP's lose their white stripe in captive breeding too. Not sure if it declines a little with each generation, or if it begins immediately and without pattern, but it clearly mentioned that even a very strong striped (wild caught) parent will not promise that resulting offspring will carry the rather distinct and desirable trait of the stripe.

So it goes without saying that this would also be very relevant to the Aussie GTP line, being that they seem to be the most closely related of the "locality types" as far as appearance goes, if of course you follow the "Locality is relevant to appearance" idea (which many don't).

I'm no pro but I have to say, there have been a few claims of successful breeding and results in this thread by people that I have my doubts on in regards to their truth . Some of the information they have claimed about offspring data/appearance just doesn't seem to match up at all with the information from the guys who I KNOW have bred Aussies long term have posted etc, making me suspect about their claims. I may be totally wrong of course, but logic tells me to side with the known and experienced breeders past results and data over the claims that are out of the normal by either very quiet or previously unknown guys.

My 2c

 

[zulu]

re GTP

I like the striped aussie GTPs like the one in molochs iron range post,it looks similar to the pics David Wilson has from his study http://www.hermonslade.org.au/projects/HSF_03_6/hsf_03_6.htm even the yellow juvy has a well developed white dorsal stripe,the two adults that are green look to have prominent white vertebral stripes.

 

[BROWNS]

It makes no sense that striped Aussies lose the stripe when kept and bred in captivity,now why would that be?Some mentioned lack of UV etc but they are nocturnal animals which makes the theory they lose striping in captivity seem to be an incorrect statement?

Most people I know and have spoken to and who they've spoken to also have said practically every native Aussie green seen have had the classic stripe and different bright green opposed to other localities such as Indo Pacific Islands animals etc as explained in Maxwells books.

 

[zulu]

re GTP

It makes no sense that striped Aussies lose the stripe when kept and bred in captivity,now why would that be?Some mentioned lack of UV etc but they are nocturnal animals which makes the theory they lose striping in captivity seem to be an incorrect statement?

Most people I know and have spoken to and who they've spoken to also have said practically every native Aussie green seen have had the classic stripe and different bright green opposed to other localities such as Indo Pacific Islands animals etc as explained in Maxwells books.

Interesting thread on morelia viridus forum about the stripes,Morelia Viridus the administrator comments that years back at a symposium in the USA David Wilson commented that all the green old enough to under go colour change in his two year iron tange study had stripes,i beleve him as he is a scientist thats not trying to push sales.

 

[Mayhem]

It makes no sense that striped Aussies lose the stripe when kept and bred in captivity,now why would that be?Some mentioned lack of UV etc but they are nocturnal animals which makes the theory they lose striping in captivity seem to be an incorrect statement?

Most people I know and have spoken to and who they've spoken to also have said practically every native Aussie green seen have had the classic stripe and different bright green opposed to other localities such as Indo Pacific Islands animals etc as explained in Maxwells books.

Doesnt have to make sense, it just is I guess you could think of it as one of those mysteries like what causes Diamond Python Syndrome in captive Diamonds.... I'm sure there is an answer somewhere, but it isn't immediately obvious yet.

BUT... BUT... BUT... on that note....

Question for Waterrat:

You keep your GTP's outdoors effectively don't you??? Sorry I might be confused, but I'm kind of assuming that you do because of where you live and I think it also says something to the effect on your website???

I ask this, because it would also raise the question of the stripe on your animals in relation to this topic - if they are indeed kept "outside" has the stripe on your animals deteriorated at all over the generations??? Have you noticed any difference in the stripe consistency between your "outdoor" housed animals and your "indoor" housed animals (if you even have such a indoor/outdoor thing going on?)

 

[Waterrat]

Question for Waterrat:

You keep your GTP's outdoors effectively don't you??? Sorry I might be confused, but I'm kind of assuming that you do because of where you live and I think it also says something to the effect on your website???

I ask this, because it would also raise the question of the stripe on your animals in relation to this topic - if they are indeed kept "outside" has the stripe on your animals deteriorated at all over the generations??? Have you noticed any difference in the stripe consistency between your "outdoor" housed animals and your "indoor" housed animals (if you even have such a indoor/outdoor thing going on?)

UV has nothing to do with the white pigment. Some captive bred GTPs have less white markings, some have more and they usually acquire more white markings as they get older.
Basically, what DanN said in his post is correct, he knows what he is talking about.

 

[Waterrat]

I need to make few corrections:
1/ I didn't say it's rare for native GTPs to have a vertebral stripe. I did refer to "uninterrupted, i.e. not continuous / with any few gaps" vertebral line. All natives have some form of line, even if it means a few sp**** dots.

2/ I did not say or imply that the copy of the permit I posted was in my name. The reason for posting it was to prove that permit(s) have been issued to collect GTPs in Qld.

Zulu, David Wilson meant vertebral markings as in a series of white or creamy / yellow dots that may or may not be joined all the way from head to tail. When you say "stripes" it's an ambiguous word that I am sure David didn't use.

Here we can see how incorrect wording such as "stripes" , "classic stripe" "a line" can lead to confusion - yet, we are talking about the same thing. Certainly, not all native GTPs (in the wild) have uninterrupted, continuous vertebral markings just like not all captive bred ones don't necessarily have reduced markings. It is also incorrect to state that native GTPs loose the markings in captivity. They certainly don't loose any once they're there.

I hope this helps a bit.

cheers

 

[Waterrat]

To illustrate the differences, here are 3 examples:

1 continuous, unbroken line (I call it line because it's uninterrupted)
2 series of markings along the spine that have gaps but there are also additional "spots" outside the line.
3 series of markings with wide gaps.

None of these types are "classic" or typical" it's just normal variation that can be seen in both wild and captive bred natives.

 

[cement]

I was told by a reptile keeper at the zoo that Aus zoo's greens are PNG.

At an expo last year I asked a big time breeder if their greens were native to Aus... I was told by him (after a slight hesitation) that these particular hatchys were born in Aus. Now, i can only assume that this is a bit of a sneaky way to lead a less then observant person into thinking that they were native.

And with another transaction with the same person going sour, I am now of the opinion that just because someone breeds everything and has a massive business concern, is not the right way to buy animals of good quality or of a desired locality.

When it comes to the humble green python, and the day will come when I am buying them, you have to do your research and not be governed by the cheapest price or the clever sales pitch. I have a fairly good idea who I will be contacting when the time has come and this is after years of watching, talking and listening and reading.

No other snake creates such an aura of confusion or political bull****.!!

 

[Waterrat]

I was told by a reptile keeper at the zoo that Aus zoo's greens are PNG.

At an expo last year I asked a big time breeder if their greens were native to Aus... I was told by him (after a slight hesitation) that these particular hatchys were born in Aus. Now, i can only assume that this is a bit of a sneaky way to lead a less then observant person into thinking that they were native.

The breeder was implying, that they weren't smuggled in. The rest of his answer is pretty clear .......

 

[Serpentes]

I was told by a reptile keeper at the zoo that Aus zoo's greens are PNG.

Steve Irwin had several high quality Australian green pythons, but he couldn't keep many of them alive, let alone breed them.

 

[Mayhem]

But the whole canary chonrdo thing is pretty shakey isnt it? I had a feeling they often turned green, just aloooooot later (up to 5 years into life), which has left quite a few people staring at their now fairly normal looking green chondro, wondering "Why did I pay so much again?"

 

[zulu]

re GTP

But the whole canary chonrdo thing is pretty shakey isnt it? I had a feeling they often turned green, just aloooooot later (up to 5 years into life), which has left quite a few people staring at their now fairly normal looking green chondro, wondering "Why did I pay so much again?"

Youve launched a canary,earth to mayhem,come in little buddy your breaking up,mayday,mayday ! :lol: