GTP thoughts

[Lewy]

I have bred greens every year since 2001.... a lot longer than some other 'experts'

Your my hero

 

[deebo]

A bit off topic I guess but are the greens at Australia Zoo aussie ones? When i was there a while ago they had 3 on display.....here is a pic of each one. Are they all aussie do you think?

 

[deebo]

also, what was the reasoning behind confiscating the greens from people a whiel ago? I am assuming that they were legally collected to begin with.....I would be pissed off I had my snakes confiscated only to be given to someone else. There doesnt seem to be much logic to it. If someone else can legally keep them then why cant I?

 

[Serpentes]

Dave- there are complex issues resulting in the politically-motivated raids on some herpetologists in the past. Some of these raids were contested all the way to the Supreme Court, and well known people like Steve Irwin abolished any chance of gaining my respect with their abhorrent, immoral behaviour in some cases. The pythons you photographed above are probably not the ones young Irwin swindled. He killed them off or sent them away. The ones you picture are not Australian, or are mongels. Even though Irwin was the threatened species coordinator for Chondropython, he didn't improve the conservation status in captive populations.

Bundysnake- if you do your homework you'll be able to answer your own question. Hint: read some of the primary literature Waterrat has posted on the GTP Essential Information sticky. Especially the one with "...reveals cryptic diversity.." in the title.

Browns: permits to collect are issued according to the suitability of license applicants. If you wanted to yourself, you can simply download the application permit from the Ecoaccess website, fill it in and wait for the reply. If your application passes the first round of inspections you will have just entered paperwork hell. You will need to affiliate with a professional organsiation, demonstrate years of professional experience yourself, have several scientific referees willing to vouch for your experience and skill, Animal Ethics Approval according to Federal requirements from a board of 16 scrutineers, and a clearly designed plan. If you pass the second round of the application process you'll be required to report regularly to your very own Ecoaccess representative who will assess your license on an ongoing, personal basis. It's a pain in the bum, trust me. I've had a number of different types of these permits.

Licenses aren't only give to one person. The one you question in a previous post was not the only license granted in that time period. The other licenses were given to other herpetologists of renown who were able to satisfy the permit application requirements at the time.

Sounds like we have a mutual friend in Bob B, sadly I don't get up to visit him much now as I live in NSW! He taught me a lot, and I miss all his amazing insights into ecological processes and behaviours. People like him and Michael Cermak tend not to blow their own horns as much as they could, and people sometimes aren't cluey enough to offer the appropriate respect. But you get that anywhere.

 

[Waterrat]

A bit off topic I guess but are the greens at Australia Zoo aussie ones? When i was there a while ago they had 3 on display.....here is a pic of each one. Are they all aussie do you think?

David, none of these are aussie native although AZ do have some natives in their collection.
The confiscation, etc., goes back a long way and is linked to the Bob Buckley saga - a long story!

 

[deebo]

thats sad that they dont display the ones that live in our own country! The last one certainly didnt look like a typical aussie but wasnt certain on the others....

Is there any literature that has a good history on the collection etc of the aussie greens or has it not been well published?

 

[Serpentes]

The collection history of green pythons is shrouded in political and personal conflicts, the rife jealousy that these permits evoke in some people makes it better for the permit holders remain discrete. In fact discretion is stipulated in the permit requirements, as to avoid the nay-sayers interfering. It doesn't always work There is some interesting reading on the net if you want to waste time and energy looking into some of the political strangeness surrounding elements of green python collection and husbandry.

There are publications by the Australian Senate Committee concerning green pythons. This species has a complex political history.

 

[Waterrat]

thats sad that they dont display the ones that live in our own country! The last one certainly didnt look like a typical aussie but wasnt certain on the others....

Is there any literature that has a good history on the collection etc of the aussie greens or has it not been well published?

Nothing has been published on the collecting - if it was, it would be titled "the black book". lol
A lot has been published on native and other GTPs - go to the "Gtp - essential info" thread here or on ARF (more complete there).

 

[Kurto]

Is there any literature that has a good history on the collection etc of the aussie greens or has it not been well published?

Hearing and reading opinions and rumors over the last few years has left me skeptical of anyone claiming 100% native collections. I'm not singling anyone out in particular. But having some sort of overview of the captive history of Aussie greens would be great. Link to a past thread maybe?

 

[Kurto]

Be me to it Waterrat!

 

[Perko]

If i was going to outlay the extra bucks on a Aussie, i would want it to look like this stunner.
What a great looking snake.
Has anyone got any pics of wild Oz GTP's with out the full white stripe?

Aussies are definitely my favourites. I'm biased though, as I keep and breed Aussie GTPs, and, well, I'm Australian! Guess I'm a bit patriotic But seriously, they do have to be one of the prettiest GTPs. The white vertebral stripe is just speccy. I was a bit worried when I first bred my Aussies, as I'd heard of and seen other 'Aussie' lineages that didn't all develop good vertebral stripes. I was pretty amazed to see all of my hatchlings emerging from the egg with a clear vertebral stripe already!! I don't know of any other GTP locality that shows the adult pattern as hatchlings like these seem to do. Love them!

 

[Guest]

From what i understand all our GTP's came from PNG initially when it was connected to Cape York so what is all the fuss about pure aussie GTP's?

From what I understand carpet pythons come from Australia and there seems to be a great deal of fuss about locality specific animals here and even more fuss about mixing localites but it just seems to me that no one cares when it comes to GTP's as long as they get one cheap

 

[Waterrat]

If i was going to outlay the extra bucks on a Aussie, i would want it to look like this stunner.
What a great looking snake.
Has anyone got any pics of wild Oz GTP's with out the full white stripe?

Craig, wild natives with interrupted vertebral line outweigh the ones with continuous line by large. I would say individuals like on that photo are rare.

 

[BARRAMUNDI]

Waterrat, I'm not trying to make an issue, but
In regards to an earlier post about price and value of Natives, I think its pretty safe to assume that you and probably some others still have a number of yearlings from last year and a large number of hatchlings from this season. If not, alot of people are of the perception you must.

So with that in mind, I look at the current asking price of $3 500 ea for a hatchling, and then you have to take into account that I need to buy perhaps 3,4 or even 5 to guarantee a pair. Then wait the 3-4 years to get them breeding. At that point, you would have bred numerous clutch's each year and so would have other breeders, therefore filling the demand and lowering the price. That then means that the first year I bred my natives the price would have at least dropped by half, probably more. Take into account that I may only breed 1 female and she may only lay10-12 eggs, and those juveniles (if they all hatch) may be only worth $1 000 ea by that time. So my initial investment of 10k - 15k, may only return 10k.

10k sounds good, but to outlay upto 15k and only get back 10-12k 3 or 4 years later is a bit on the lean side for most people, especially when you consider most of us are spending our hard earned savings on a hobby and animals we love.

I simply believe that the people who were prepared to buy Natives as an investment and pay the higher prices have been and gone, the next lot of people willing to pay the $3 500 - $4 500 have been and gone, so the rest of us are waiting for $1 500 - $2 000

Im not speaking for everyone but most of us want to make our money back, perhaps double it. That way we have enough of a profit to buy our other wanted reptiles. that seems to be the general perception of most of my herp mates and others that I talk to. Thought you might appreciate our perspective.

 

[Guest]

Waterrat, I'm not trying to make an issue, but
In regards to an earlier post about price and value of Natives, I think its pretty safe to assume that you and probably some others still have a number of yearlings from last year and a large number of hatchlings from this season. If not, alot of people are of the perception you must.

So with that in mind, I look at the current asking price of $3 500 ea for a hatchling, and then you have to take into account that I need to buy perhaps 3,4 or even 5 to guarantee a pair. Then wait the 3-4 years to get them breeding. At that point, you would have bred numerous clutch's each year and so would have other breeders, therefore filling the demand and lowering the price. That then means that the first year I bred my natives the price would have at least dropped by half, probably more. Take into account that I may only breed 1 female and she may only lay10-12 eggs, and those juveniles (if they all hatch) may be only worth $1 000 ea by that time. So my initial investment of 10k - 15k, may only return 10k.

10k sounds good, but to outlay upto 15k and only get back 10-12k 3 or 4 years later is a bit on the lean side for most people, especially when you consider most of us are spending our hard earned savings on a hobby and animals we love.

I simply believe that the people who were prepared to buy Natives as an investment and pay the higher prices have been and gone, the next lot of people willing to pay the $3 500 - $4 500 have been and gone, so the rest of us are waiting for $1 500 - $2 000

Im not speaking for everyone but most of us want to make our money back, perhaps double it. That way we have enough of a profit to buy our other wanted reptiles. that seems to be the general perception of most of my herp mates and others that I talk to. Thought you might appreciate our perspective.

I had the opportunity to buy a hatchling for around $1800 I spent around $4500 because I wanted a female aussie and for a yearling sexed native GTP that's what they cost! I could at any stage buy a hatcho for a lot less but Id have no idea what sex it is, no idea where it comes from, and no idea if it will even turn out green in the end!
and im not against non-natives as soon as I find some I like I will pay the $1800-$2000 but im not going to sit there and say "when the price comes down" when it has already

 

[Waterrat]

I do appreciate your perspective and your calculations and assumptions sound good to me. You are right in that the investors are gone. It's your call whether you want to get into breeding GTPs for the money or for other reasons. I really have nothing else to add to this part of your post.

I don't have many yearlings left, to be exact, I have 2 pairs left and there is currently a serious interest in one of them. It's clear to me that people prefer sexed, coloured, well established GTPs and they are prepared to pay the extra.
I am not at liberty to disclose how many hatchlings I have but be assured I don't mind to hold onto them for a year and repeat what I have done last year.
My advice is, if you are seriously interested in buying 3,4,5 of my snakes, it would be better to talk to me over the phone or at least through PM.

regards
Michael

 

[Perko]

Thanks for clearing that up.

Craig, wild natives with interrupted vertebral line outweigh the ones with continuous line by large. I would say individuals like on that photo are rare.

 

[BARRAMUNDI]

Farma
I certainly believe that Adrian's and Michael's are worth more than most. You do get a certain degree of confidence in health and history. They are worth more than exotic GTPS. Most exotic GTPS are only worth $1 000, with that taken into account Natives are worth $1 500 - $2 000. I feel that is a fair price and I feel that is the price that should maintain.

Sure the price has come down from the original figures, but like I said most of us dont see the long term return value in the current price, its a simple as that. (sorry, no offence meant to you Michael)

 

[PilbaraPythons]

I am predicting with the non natives, that when a few of the more interesting traits become readily avaiable as they are continually line bred, they will be more popular than natives and will be similarly priced as the natives price tags slowly comes down. Personally I like the natives, but I guess I am just a tad nostalgic.

 

[Waterrat]

Farma
I certainly believe that Adrian's and Michael's are worth more than most. You do get a certain degree of confidence in health and history. They are worth more than exotic GTPS. Most exotic GTPS are only worth $1 000, with that taken into account Natives are worth $1 500 - $2 000. I feel that is a fair price and I feel that is the price that should maintain.

Sure the price has come down from the original figures, but like I said most of us dont see the long term return value in the current price, its a simple as that. (sorry, no offence meant to you Michael)

No offence taken. Some things such as cars are not worth investing in, when it comes to selling you always come out short but boy, it's fun driving them!