Advice Needed - OK to put Murray Darling Carpet Python with Jungle Carpet Python?

[Burgo89]

Look out! Shots fired haha I don't think [MENTION=41835]Wokka[/MENTION] [MENTION=4778]cement[/MENTION] have ever been told they are wrong before on this site.

 

[cement]

Hahaha!
I actually don't mind being told I am wrong. And in this case I hope I am wrong. A test for sunshine virus is something that anyone who cares about their animals would pray for.
But there is something that may be being missed here, hidden by the good old politics of who is wrong and who is right and whose team do I choose...

That paper says to take it as a guide only.
It also mentions that positive testing holds more weight then negative.
It also mentions incubation. Does a snake that has incubating virus show positive in a test.?
If your sending samples from the east coast to the west,... is the sample still relevant/good by the time it gets to the lab for testing?
How long after acquiring their snake, did the OP get the test done? Because incubation period of this virus is unknown. The paper also says that if you've had an infected animal
then constant testing is necessary to have some confidence about the rest of the collection, but it is still unknown territory.
After reading the paper, yes I agree ...there is a test for Sunshine virus. Its not a simple yes or no though as the OP may believe, to warrant housing two snakes together.

 

[winny111]

[MENTION=4778]cement[/MENTION]
I could not agree more with what you just said. I did not know if I was reading the paper correctly and found some of the details a bit vague, As I said I will talk with Dr Tim Hyndman when I next see him and see if he can clarify a few things.The WAHS group in Perth have him coming as a guest speaker in August to talk on Viruses in snakes and diagnostic testing but I am sure he will attend a meeting before that.
QUOTE=cement;2476756]Hahaha!
I actually don't mind being told I am wrong. And in this case I hope I am wrong. A test for sunshine virus is something that anyone who cares about their animals would pray for.
But there is something that may be being missed here, hidden by the good old politics of who is wrong and who is right and whose team do I choose...

That paper says to take it as a guide only.
It also mentions that positive testing holds more weight then negative.
It also mentions incubation. Does a snake that has incubating virus show positive in a test.?
If your sending samples from the east coast to the west,... is the sample still relevant/good by the time it gets to the lab for testing?
How long after acquiring their snake, did the OP get the test done? Because incubation period of this virus is unknown. The paper also says that if you've had an infected animal
then constant testing is necessary to have some confidence about the rest of the collection, but it is still unknown territory.
After reading the paper, yes I agree ...there is a test for Sunshine virus. Its not a simple yes or no though as the OP may believe, to warrant housing two snakes together.[/QUOTE]

 

[Wokka]

Look out! Shots fired haha I don't think @Wokka @cement have ever been told they are wrong before on this site.

I have been wrong plenty of times in my 10 or so years participating in this site. That's part of the idea for the site- to get discussion going! For me this thread is about the risks of housing two snakes from different backgrounds together, not Sunshine Virus and probably not even the two snakes mentioned originally. Pretty well all tests can have false positives and false negatives and so if possible it is desirable to quarantine new snakes regardless of testing. Not many keepers are going to spend thousands of dollars testing for every possible reptile disease and there are still may problems which cant be tested for. I don't know the status of Sunshine Virus testing but I am sure there are hundreds of virus and diseases for which no tests exist, so [MENTION=17919]winny111[/MENTION]. just because there maybe a test for Sunshine virus, that doesn't mean that the snakes don't carry other diseases, particularly if they haven't or cant be tested for those diseases.

 

[pythoninfinite]

No need to get your delicates in a twist winny111. It wasn't clear from what I wrote, but my comment about letting some of the excellent info provided in this thread (by some VERY experienced keepers) was directed at the OP, who may be looking for ways to avoid major expense when acquiring another animal. With regard to the quarantine issue, you can be sure that any organisation/institution which keeps reptiles will still rely more on quarantine than a newish test for this virus, as we all should. The test (which is a huge credit to Tim's work) is simply another arrow in the quiver of defences against the one-way street we enter when this disease wipes out entire collections, and certainly provides added peace of mind for keepers. I haven't spoken to Tim in some time, but he was well known to me when I was a dealer in Perth post 2003, about the time he graduated as a vet - I actually sold him his first snakes. he is indeed an asset to reptile keeping, as well as being a great bloke.

Jamie

 

[PythonMelb]

Gentlemen,

Thank you all for your input.

- UPDATE -

I took all the feedback on board. It's interesting because initially the only reason I was even CONSIDERING buying another snake was that the guy working in the store said "Yes, you can put this snake with your jungle no problem" which made me think, WOW, I could actually own another snake at relatively little expense ..

Which led to this discussion... And basically from what I read on the net at a quick glance you all confirmed my worst fears. That really the guy at the store did not give me the best advice.. but let's face it, it was not exactly non bias advice .. he wanted to get the sale and make some money. But I was really not willing to do something which would be to the detriment of these animals, as I've already said.

So anyway, I decided to buy another enclosure because I got a brainwave and realised that, hey, I could just put it on top of the other and that would do away with the issue of space (I did also run this by the flatmates first as a courtesy though). After looking through the net I found that I could get an enclosure for marginally cheaper than the aquarium/reptile store but as I was now stacking one on top of the other I wanted them to both look the same.. I managed to get a discount however, so got the enclosure for $415.00 which isn't too bad in my opinion. (Photo attached showing the two enclosures).

I've managed to source other items for the enclosure much cheaper online than through the aquarium store (and have also purchased 2x pairs of "smick trimmings" from Virides ) - Great idea that. I was never sure what the solution was to the getting-the-glass-grubby-when-you-open-the-enclosure-issue - but there you have it.. problem solved.

On the Sunshine Virus - I have a formal letter from Mr Tim Hyndman confirming the results of the virus in my existing jungle carpet python as being 'NEGATIVE' so confirming there is indeed a test for it (bear in mind the previous time I had this test done it was a 'POSITIVE' and explained the neurological issues my former jungle had been experiencing - I had her put down immediately). However, as per the previous comments, there may be some issues around this testing. At the end of the day, I, like other owners, after having experience with one of these horrific viruses have that in mind moving forward and am therefore more likely to have a snake tested for this, as with my more recent jungle acquisition..

With that in mind, I was banking on having any new snake I purchase treated for this virus which is not cheap after paying for the tests & shipping etc + consult fee.

After speaking with a mate about my decisions I am now rethinking the whole purchase of this Murray Darling Carpet Python however ... I will most likely still go with a Murray Darling, but am now thinking I may just go with a hatchling ... in which case I can put it in the same enclosure in a click clack until it outgrows that, at which point in time I have the larger enclosure ready

The positives of going with a hatchling in my eyes is that I would see it grow from a month or two old and have direct input into the wellbeing of the snake at a young age, avoiding any potential underfeeding which may (?) occur at a pet store (God forbid ..) and potentially also avoid harmful diseases which, I understand, can flourish in a pet store environment (and hey, do away with the Sunshine Virus test, thus saving me some $$$).

So really just taking you through my journey of the last few days ...

Does anyone know any good breeders of Murray Darling Carpet Pythons?!! :lol:

Also, Mikey Mike, I think your query does in fact very much relate to mine, and, if you read the thread, it seems all the advice is to NOT put two snakes together. Except, it seems, if they are the same breed and opposite *** then there may be grounds (or less issues therein) for putting them together.

Cheers
Dave

 

[pythoninfinite]

An interesting journey - you do seem like an owner who considers all options carefully... Just one point I might mention - when the top enclosure eventually has an inhabitant, keep an eye on the temperatures in the top cage. You may need to insulate or ventilate between the two because the top enclosure will pick up a lot of heat from the enclosure below, especially if you have an overhead heat source in the lower cage.

Jamie

 

[PythonMelb]

Thanks Jamie - Yes I endeavor to find the best solution.. I think this became an ethical issue for me and fortunately I got to the right outcome with everyone's help and feedback..

You do make a good point above. I took a reading with my infra red thermometer and got 30 degrees in the new enclosure based on the heat coming through from the one below (with about 26 degrees at the cool end). Not bad temperatures actually! But there obviously wouldn't be a basking spot so I think I definitely need to put something between them to insulate. Any thoughts - perhaps a sheet of polystyrene?

I also had a closer look at what is happening to the wooden part of the enclosure below close to the ceramic infra red heat emitter. it doesn't look too healthy, photo attached. Any suggestions?

Cheers

 

[pythoninfinite]

Yeah, the wood bits close to the hotter forms of heat mechanisms can suffer a bit, and may be a hazard in some circumstances. I would go to Bunnings and get the smallest piece of Hardiflex (a paper-based fibre cement product, about 6mm thick if I recall), or if you know a builder or handyman, get an offcut, and cut it to about 150mm x 150mm, and fix to the wall or top of the cage. It's fireproof, and will diffuse the heat to prevent the scorching of the timber. Cheap, easy to "score& snap" and you can paint it if you want to. Works very well, but if screwing it to the timber, don't place the screws too close to the edge, or drive them too hard into the Hardiflex, or it can crumble.

If there's any building going on in your suburb, you might ask if there are any offcuts at the site.

With regard to the insulation between the two, polystyrene works quite well, although over time it too heats up and very slowly transmits heat as well, but it's a slow process, and changes in the ambient temps of the room will affect the temps in the top cage a lot quicker, so as long as your thermostat is working well, you should have no problems. You might not need a heat source in the top enclosure during the warmer months, although Melbourne weather can be very changeable in summer. I'll admit that I've not used basking heat sources for my pythons (except Greens) for 15 years - I rely on belly heat provided by heat cords - and this has worked very well for me (& the snakes!), but I acknowledge that other keepers prefer a more natural heat/light setup.

Jamie

 

[drsimpson]

Hi all,
I thought I would just jump in here and make a few brief comments regarding Sunshine virus as I read some the above comments and there is some incorrect information being stated.

I can confirm that there is a very accurate and specific test for Sunshine virus available... in fact it has been available for at least 5 years! The test can be performed on swabs taken from the mouth or cloaca and can also be performed on tissue samples taken at the time of necropsy. As for OPMV (which is no longer known by this name and should be referred to as ferlavirus) there have been no confirmed cases of this in Australia based on viral testing studies. It is currently felt this virus is exotic to Australia.

Sunshine virus has been detected in a range of python species in QLD, NT, NSW, Vic, SA and also in Germany. Continual study is being performed on this and other reptile viruses such as bornavirus. It is expected that over the coming years there will be a lot of new information that comes to light in this field.

Regards,
Dr Shane Simpson
Karingal Vet Hospital

PS. As for keeping two male snakes together... don't do it... particularly 2 completely different types of carpet pythons.

 

[PythonMelb]

Hi Jamie,

Great advice once again thank you sir, I'll go with this option to protect the enclosure from excessive heat.

Thanks Shane for clarifying re the Sunshine Virus and good to have another confirmation that the final decision was the right one

Cheers

 

[pythoninfinite]

Don't know if Shane gets back here very often, or if he'll see this, but as a keeper from "way back," I'm curious about the other often mentioned viral disease - IBD (Inclusion Body Disease) which, back in the 90s was often considered to be implicated in die-offs of reptiles in collections in Australia. I was wondering if, as knowledge of the Aussie keeping scene has grown, whether these earlier deaths were now considered to be caused by Sunshine Virus, as those previously attributed to OPMV are now. I understand that the large die-off of snakes, including many elapids, at the Australian Reptile Park around 2002 was at that time attributed to OPMV, but this would seem to be incorrect in light of Tim Hyndman's work.

If it was actually Sunshine Virus, the fact that it knocked off large numbers of their elapid collection as well as pythons seems to make a joke of the ban on python import into WA, while elapids CAN be imported - a ban supposedly in place to "protect" WA from this disease.

Jamie

 

[cement]

I also learnt after more talk with my local vet, who is doing a great job at learning as much as possible about reptiles, that he was in recent verbal communication with Hyndman and that the test is valid wether the virus is being shed or not, and also while in the incubation period.
This is great news. he also gave a quarantine recomendation period of 300 days, which is close enough to the 13 month period that I heard about from a vet at a wildlife carer organisation seminar that was held in Sth Aus a few years ago.
Sunshine virus does contain inclusion bodies Jamie, that is what they look for in the brain, liver, lung and kidney samples. So it seems fair to say that IBD and Sunshine is quite possibly the one and the same.

 

[pythoninfinite]

Yeah, I think that until further work was done, all three diseases show inclusion bodies, particularly in neurological tissues, and they were pretty much lumped together in the early days. We should all be very grateful for the work that TH has done at Murdoch, it's been a revelation for keepers and collection owners, private and commercial, in this country.

Jamie

 

[Wokka]

does it matter what you call it? Aren't they all a death sentence?

 

[pythoninfinite]

To some extent it does matter Warwick - some can only be confirmed post mortem as I understand it, but as I've been around for the duration of these disease outbreaks over the last 30 years, I'm curious about the evolution of the knowledge we now have about their provenance. Plus, the last time I spoke with TH (a few years ago to be honest) he did intimate that the development of a vaccine for Sunshine Virus was a distinct possibility in the future.

Jamie

 

[cement]

Thats the problem wokka, some carry it and shed the virus so can pass it on but aren't affected by it. So for carriers it's not.
But also, I think the ability to test for the individual "subspecies" (for want of a better word) can probably help in the way a keeper deals with it.

Its not in the virus's best interest to kill everything it touches. Otherwise with isolation it wouldn't exist. So I guess thats where the importance of a carrier comes in.

 

[PythonMelb]

Hi all,

Just a further update - I have since cancelled the reservation on the Murray Darling. I feel that it's a lot wiser to purchase direct from a breeder. And actually am quite excited at the prospects of purchasing a hatchling and seeing it grow as I have not yet experienced that with either of the Jungles I have owned, having purchased them both at 2-3 years old.

Dave

 

[pythoninfinite]

I agree with you - it's amazing to watch them grow from the time they come out of the egg, and I think you'll feel more "connected" to the animal as well, especially if you only have a few reptiles.

Jamie

 

[Snapped]

How exciting, keep us updated with what you do end up on getting, won't you?

There's a good link somewhere on here on setting up a "click clack" tub, which is really handy & has pics and simple instructions. I think it's pinned, if I find it, I'll come back and post the link.

- - - Updated - - -

Found it [MENTION=42158]PythonMelb[/MENTION], here's the link https://aussiepythons.com/forum/showthread.php/93266-Guide-to-build-a-click-clack-(dial-up-warning)