Another question about intergrades

[Greebo]

My gott! What a bunch of half baked theories just to argue the point.
There are a lot of references to what happens if an intergrade and a coastal breed in the wild. Sure, this probably does happen in the wild, it's been going on for thousands of years. Personally, I don't know if the offspring would be classed as hybrids or intergrades.
But...here is where you need to pay attention...it is completely irrelevent to why reptile keepers use the terms intergrade and hybid.
The term intergrade refers to snakes already in captivity that are known to come from the area where these snakes have evolved. They are genereally accepted by keepers to be a separate species from Diamonds and Coastals. That is why people use the term intergrade.
You can not create your own intergrades by crossbreeding species. The hypothetical theory of breeding your own for a thousand years is really clutching at straws. When you have done this, please get back to me and let me know how it went. I would be interested in hearing your results.

 

[dee4]

Thanks ppl, there appears to be light at the end of the tunnel. It is becoming a little clearer for some of us.
The questions I will ask know is: How long have ppl been involved with breeding/studying pythons?
How long have intergrades been recognized?
Simple questions but generally there has been comments that they have been breeding in the wild for 1000's of years, well I certainly would like to know how we all know this.
I would say speculation is at hand on this one.
Besides sarcasm these are serious questions everyone has been asking, you all may bang your heads, gett headahces, drop some chill pills etc but these questions will be around for ever untill we all understand. Questions questions and more questions, ??? keep up the good work, there is info coming forward that is helping us all, the questions are general; ones that everyone wants to know, just not one thread here and another one there. No opertunities for questions to be asked at one place. This is it, get it on, bring it on, if one person comes out of tis witha undestanding you have acheived something, i for one are getting there.

Thanks :roll: :wink:

 

[Jarvis78]

The way I understand it (from reading this thread) is intergrades are a new blood line that is the result of 2 (obviously more) coastle/diamond Hybrids breeding together. a hybrid is the the result of the coastle and the diamond breeding in the first place. thats how i interpret it.

does this sound at all like what is trying to be said here? or am i still barking up the wrong family tree?

 

[Greebo]

Hey Dee, nothing wrong with asking questions, that's what the site is all about. I think the idea of an article about what exactly an intergrade is woud be a great idea. It would certainly save members having to explain the same thing over and over.
Anyone want to volunteer to write an article??
I think the frustration sets in when members put forward facts that are generally accepted to be true by the herping community only to have people try (in vain) to prove them wrong with hypotheticals.

 

[dee4]

There seems to be alot of hypotheticals on this one, unfortunately I don't think everyone has all the answers to all the questions Hypothetical or not. But that would be a good idea to have and article on this exact topic, maybe Greg Hollises could help out. I don't think simpley calling them Port Mac's would actually stop the questions.

 

[moosenoose]

people try (in vain) to prove them wrong with hypotheticals.

It's certainly not a vain attempt Greebs, it's hypothesizing - an educated guess made by members who are confused with the terms in relation to when & why they are used. They are reasonable questions that I believe are intellegent ones, no matter how much Browns, Bigguy or yourself roll your eyes. I take offence at the eye rolling! I'm not stupid! I'm far from it! The questions are asked, I believe, to not discredit experienced members or theories, I honestly believe there is no malice behind them, but they are asked for the sole purpose of digging out the deeper answers.

I for one am glad this has been talked about in detail. I am also appreciative that experienced members such as yourselves who have a grasp on the use of this terminology have the patience to wade through some of the questions. It has been a very cloudy area for me and the terms have never really made perfect sense.

So upon saying that, let me see if I've got this absolutely straight: If two intergrades are bred that come from the same area they remain intergrades. If two intergrades from different areas are bred they could in effect become hybrid intergrades?? (god the confusion is starting to set in again :lol
So a "new" intergrade cannot be achieved in captivity no matter what. And a hybrid is a breeding of 2 species that in reality can never meet in the wild! - Done! I hope!

 

[dee4]

Moosey babby, that's not bad going. I never done this before but the way you explained that, I was actually running out of breath. Gee thanks.

 

[SnakeWrangler]

It is ludicrous to say that you cannot end up with an integrade if you cross a pure coastal with a pure diamond and breed their offspring over many generations, afterall this is exactly what happened in the wild!!

@dee4: the only thing that would stop the questions is to stop the confusion, it really isn't that hard to understand. You really can't argue with the genetics, now I am in no way an expert on genetics so if I am wrong about this and a person who has a genuine in depth knowledge of how genetics works comes on here as says I am wrong, then I will accept it. Otherwise, my argument holds more water.

The term intergrade refers to snakes already in captivity that are known to come from the area where these snakes have evolved.

Menagerie, Diamonds occur south of Taree to the Vic border. Coastal Carpets occur north of Coffs Harbour. Inbetween are the intergrades were over hundreds of thousands of years the two species merged with each other, creating a seperate species.

Bigguy seems to think the wild ones are also integrades (from another thread).

I will also point out, so that it doesn't look like I am trying to be deceptive, that bigguy also says that "pure diamond" cross "pure coastal" is not an integrade. I agree with this. As I said before, an integrade and a diamond cross coastal have the same gene base, the only difference is that an integrade has a "tight" (consistently produce the same thing) set of those genes where a first generation diamond cross coastal has a "loose" (do not consistently produce the same thing) set, the latter would require much specialised breeding (the same that has happened naturally) to attain the same status as the natural integrade.

Besides all this, it has be shown elsewhere on this forum that diamonds and coastals (plus all other eastern and northern Morelia) are really the same species "genetically" anyway, so "integrades" are really just "forms" of Morelia spilota species. They are not really a seperate species at all.

Taylor et al's work is strong evidence for concluding that all of the eastern Australian and northern Australian Morelia belong to just one taxonomic unit Morelia spilota spilota. Sure some of them look different - that means nothing.

Look at it this way ... Unless they happen to be biggotted, racist, s@*mbag hitlerites most people accept that the human race is comprised of a single taxonomic unit Homo sapiens with wide geographical variation in appearance but just one unique genome. The concept is simple, broadly accepted and proven fact.

So why should it be so hard to accept the fact that in terms of many other types of animals similar variations in appearance (for whatever reasons)... such as colour, body size ... occur despite the fact that the genome of all is one and the same.

Cheers.

 

[Magpie]

I still think if we called the Port Mac pythons, people would be able to get over it a lot easier.
No one suggests that if you cross a darwin with a coastal you get a jungle do they?
Yet jungles are found in between coastals on the east coast and darwins on the north coast?
The fact is, The diamond python sub species, family, group, clade, "type" whatever you want to call it does best around the sydney region. Hence that is what is found there after many years of natural selection. Coastal types do better further north, hence that is where they are found. Port Mac types do best in the range in between, hence they have been living there for thousands of year and the ones in the centre of that range have not bred with anything but other port macs for thousands of years till white people came along.
Yes, I'm sure there are natural hybrids being hatched along the edges of the distributions.
But no, crossing them in captivity does not give you a port mac, it gives you a cross.
Apart from anything else, your diamond would have to be from the northern extremes of the range and your coastal from the southern extremes of their range.
To put it another way that I hope people do not find offensive.... If an Indian person had a child with an Afgan, their child would not be of Pakistani descent.

 

[SnakeWrangler]

What was the offspring of the first natural diamond X coastal called? Integrade or Hybrid?

 

[peterescue]

What was the offspring of the first natural diamond X coastal called? Integrade or Hybrid?

Marvin or something.
Its totally inconsequential really
Who isnt to say that diamonds and coastal didnt emerge from intregrades.
They all emerged from somewhere and it wasnt simultanous appearances up and down the coast.
What that means is that its not a fact that intergrades are a mating of a diamond and a coastal but that they are another form of the species Morelia spilota. Not a cross, not an interbreed, not anything except a

DISTINCT FORM OF THE MORELIA SPILOTA COMPLEX.

They appeared in the same way as M. varigata, M.s.cheyni etc. They evolved. This was not because of the chance meeting of a diamond and a coastal. It is the result of the continued breeding of genetic traits and possible one of the complex, be it coastal or diamond may have descended from the intergrades. My money is on the diamonds.
You cannot replicate that at home. Is that clear now.

 

[SnakeWrangler]

Who isnt to say that diamonds and coastal didnt emerge from intregrades.

I think this is an exceptional point, and it would make more sense to me, because an integrade has the genetic information necessary to create both diamond looking and coastal looking snakes, therefore if those particlaur genes were isolated, the various forms would emerge.

You cannot do that at home. Is that clear now.

Actually you can, it has and is being done with designer snakes, all it takes for a new sub-species is to get snakes that produce consistent offspring, once the genes are modified enough the will produce a new "form". In fact I can't wait for the black and white jaguar carpets to be produced in Australia, even better would be a pure jet black python. :twisted:

 

[dee4]

Very interesting isn't it? For a novice, how do you tell the difference by sight? As it is all very well stating that this form of Morelia is from here and that form is from there, but if you were to look at one that looks similar to either a coastal or a diamond. Is it as simple as any other differences between pythons or not? Colouring and patterns doesn't mean diddly sqwaut to me if they are similar to either breed. As for Browns 1st 3 pics last night, I can see the difference in the 3rd pic but for the 1st 2 ????? Pls point out the exactly where on those 2 pythons you can see the diff as this will put the icing on the cake for me.

 

[Retic]

The only true Diamond can only occur where no other carpet species occur.

 

[BROWNS]

The term intergrade refers to snakes already in captivity that are known to come from the area where these snakes have evolved

No the term intergrade refers to the ones in the wild but yes the ones being bred in captivity come from the region where they have evolved

Bigguy seems to think the wild ones are also integrades (from another thread).

That's exactly the point,intergrades are found in the wild in the areas already pointed out.....the intergrades that are now being bred in captivity are direct descendants from wild animals caught from specific localities and they all vary...all our animals originated from the wild in one way or another obviously..

toxinologist wrote:
Taylor et al's work is strong evidence for concluding that all of the eastern Australian and northern Australian Morelia belong to just one taxonomic unit Morelia spilota spilota. Sure some of them look different - that means nothing.

Look at it this way ... Unless they happen to be biggotted, racist, s@*mbag hitlerites most people accept that the human race is comprised of a single taxonomic unit Homo sapiens with wide geographical variation in appearance but just one unique genome. The concept is simple, broadly accepted and proven fact.

So why should it be so hard to accept the fact that in terms of many other types of animals similar variations in appearance (for whatever reasons)... such as colour, body size ... occur despite the fact that the genome of all is one and the same.

So we may as well call them all carpets,but we all know the difference between a Darwin,jungle and Murray Darlings for example.As Magpie said i also think they should be called Port Mac carpets.Also as pointed out earlier there are other intergrades,clines ,intermediates etc of other species such as the stimsoni mac intergrades which are tiny...2 foot maximum and i highly doubt you would get the same looking animals if you crossed a stimsons with a maculosus in captivity...they would be classed as hybrids!!!Personally i think these and other intergrades should be called a specific type of python such as Port Mac carpets,and the stimsons maculosus intergrades i myself call zebras because they have a banded pattern with a small amount of variation in colour as with most pythons.That's just my own terminology but i still think they should have names as who knows what species you're talking about when you mention the dreaded word intergrade.

They are reasonable questions that I believe are intellegent ones, no matter how much Browns, Bigguy or yourself roll your eyes. I take offence at the eye rolling! I'm not stupid! I'm far from

Moose the reason for eye rolling and head banging is because this topic has been covered so many times it's not funny.I don't for one second think you are stupid and mean no offence to you or others whatsoever,but after somethings been explained countless times before it gets very monotonous.

So upon saying that, let me see if I've got this absolutely straight: If two intergrades are bred that come from the same area they remain intergrades. If two intergrades from different areas are bred they could in effect become hybrid intergrades?? (god the confusion is starting to set in again )

That certainly is a tad confusing but they would still be cosidered an intergrade....This is another good reason they should have names such as Port Macs,Kempsey or Forster carpets,just like there are Brisbane coastals,Proserpine carpets,Townsville coastals,Cape Yorks etc just as there is with locality bred jungles such as Palmerston,Mission Beach,Tully,Atherton etc.

So a "new" intergrade cannot be achieved in captivity no matter what. And a hybrid is a breeding of 2 species that in reality can never meet in the wild! - Done! I hope!

Yep exactly right...good one Moose!!!

peterescue wrote:
Who isnt to say that diamonds and coastal didnt emerge from intregrades

Yep definitely something to ponder there!!!

peterescue wrote:
You cannot do that at home. Is that clear now.

Actually you can, it has and is being done with designer snakes, all it takes for a new sub-species is to get snakes that produce consistent offspring, once the genes are modified enough the will produce a new "form". In fact I can't wait for the black and white jaguar carpets to be produced in Australia, even better would be a pure jet black python.

Now you're barking up the wrong tree again,these are classed as hybrids ,selectively bred crosses of species not intergrades which as explained occur naturally in the wild....designer snakes is hybridising not creating another species or sub species!!!!

Pls point out the exactly where on those 2 pythons you can see the diff as this will put the icing on the cake for me

OK,very simple,diamonds do vary a great deal but have you ever seen a pure diamond or pure coastal that looks like those 2 pythons?

Phew!!! Hope that all wasn't too confusing people,i'm far from an expert on this topic but have a fair amount of knowledge on the subject.Greg Hollis is the man to speak to if you want to hear it from the horses mouth so to speak,and they are still studying these guys in the wild so i'm sure there will be more answers to our questions in time....

Does anyone have a pic of the giant carpet found last year sometime i think it was?That was the biggest recorded free ranging carpet recorded ever and that too was a Port Mac carpet,or intergrade!!

 

[SnakeWrangler]

I am not barking up any trees ... At least not today. :lol:

Then answer the question, what was the first diamond X coastal (if this is really how it happened)? it cannot be an integrade because that would mean all diamond X coastals are integrades. It had to be a hybrid?? So then integrades are nothing more than hybridisation??

The cycle continues...

 

[peterescue]

[quote="BROWNSDoes anyone have a pic of the giant carpet found last year sometime i think it was?That was the biggest recorded free ranging carpet recorded ever and that too was a Port Mac carpet,or intergrade!![/quote]
I think that you will find that may have been something to do with Greg Hollis.

Sorry Wrangles but you are barking up the wrong tree.

If you cross two pythons9(diamond and coastal) and call it an intergrade is is not and can never be a Morelia spilota Mcdowelli spilota.
It would be Morelia Spilota spilota X Morelia spilota mcdowelli.
That is the difference

I really cant understand the problem.
The onlyn way that you could mistake for anything else is by either belligerance, illiteracy, exceptionally low IQ.
I would also accept religous grounds.
Stupidity isnt really an excuse.
This topic has been explained ad infinitum and still the idiot well flows incessently. We need a biiger cork.
I dont think I should come near one of these discussions again.

 

[moosenoose]

Yep exactly right...good one Moose!!!

Beaudy!!!! Now where is my free donkey?? :lol: :lol: I'm cool with it now :wink: I've got a grasp on it all

 

[SnakeWrangler]

No need for name calling.

I do not call diamond X coastal an integrade, I call it a hybrid. What happended in nature (if we accept the current theory about integrades) then?? Didn't a coastal X a diamond?? Do you deny this??

How can you say that a diamond X a coastal doesn't make an integrade, this is exactly how it started!!

Your post really made no sense at all. :?

 

[dee4]

OK,very simple,diamonds do vary a great deal but have you ever seen a pure diamond or pure coastal that looks like those 2 pythons?

I'm sorry Browns I can't say that I have , as disturbing as this is to you I'm still not experienced enough to comment what they are. Is there a tinge of tan/brown through them as it slightly looks? If that's the case I can see it.!!!