Another question about intergrades

[Pike01]

But what if a coastal was picked up by an eagle the same time as a tornado picked up a diamond in wollongong ha ha ha and they both got dropped in forster ha ha what if pigs fly, there hundreds of kms between coastals and diamonds, of course there is no chance of them coming together. It isnt that far between M-D carpets and diamonds, with rivers running west from the great divide there is more chance, but if a diamond was washed down in a flood into carpet country it would still be a hybrid because the diamond has been taken from its natural range , through the intergrade zone. Come think about it.

 

[peterescue]

No need for name calling.

I do not call diamond X coastal an integrade, I call it a hybrid. What happended in nature (if we accept the current theory about integrades) then?? Didn't a coastal X a diamond?? Do you deny this??

Yes. It wasnt that simple. In fact I put to you that coastal carpets are descended from intergrades or that diamonds are descended from them.

How can you say that a diamond X a coastal doesn't make an integrade, this is exactly how it started!!

For this to have occured Morelia would have spread out, become isolated and become as we know them today then joined back up again and interbred

As to the name calling, I missed that. I was pointing out the bleeding obvious. Half this list cant or wont read any posts longer than two lines and then it has to be quip(not that there is anything wrong with quips)
Im dyslexic and I still manage to get most of them right.

Your post really made no sense at all. :?

As opposed to nonsense I suppose
Its not rocket surgery

 

[Guest]

????????????????????????

:lol: Hey browns,i found one near what was sea acres right on the coast at port macquarie and it was just the normal black diamond although it didnt have the brightness off southern diamonds.Those pictures look like captive hybrids and also whats getting around mostly as diamonds on the market.Never met a person who said they produced hybrids EVERY one produces pure diamonds :lol: :lol: They are pure port integrades of holliss pictured though,just want to know where you find them,maybe west of port macquarie.?

 

[tourett]

[quote="dee4I'm sorry Browns I can't say that I have , as disturbing as this is to you I'm still not experienced enough to comment what they are. Is there a tinge of tan/brown through them as it slightly looks? If that's the case I can see it.!!![/quote]

The way I think it works D4 is in the shape of the Markings/Rossettes and the color.
Pure Diamonds have small white spots/Rosettes 4-6 scales in size and seem have white rosettes with yellow and black scales.
Intergrades have larger areas of white/yellowish not really spots, that are more like 15-30 scales in size even larger and the intergrades are more yellow. The yellow is darker and the white area can be yellowish aswell LOL .
Does that make sense?:lol:
Tourett

 

[dee4]

Simple, thanks tourett.

 

[moosenoose]

Oh dear, it's started again :lol: My next question after I read this:
(ps: I don't put forward half baked theories :lol

there hundreds of kms between coastals and diamonds,.

I've gathered this (now :lol, but what happens when you mix an integrade with a Diamond?? Or with a Coastal? What does it then become? Surely integrades and pure blood snakes still mix in the wild??? True or false?? (just asking?? :lol

 

[hugsta]

I've gathered this (now ), but what happens when you mix an integrade with a Diamond?? Or with a Coastal? What does it then become?

A hybrid.

I'm sorry Browns I can't say that I have , as disturbing as this is to you I'm still not experienced enough to comment what they are. Is there a tinge of tan/brown through them as it slightly looks? If that's the case I can see it.!!!

Excellent D4

I do not call diamond X coastal an integrade, I call it a hybrid. What happended in nature (if we accept the current theory about integrades) then?? Didn't a coastal X a diamond?? Do you deny this??

Can you tell me that the integrade was a result of a diamond x coastal first?? Or can you tell me that a daimond was produced from an integradex coastal?? or that a coastal was produced from an integradexdaimond??

I think not.

If integrades were called Port macs or whatever for arguements sake other than integrades, this ongoing debate wouldn't be here.

As opposed to nonsense I suppose
Its not rocket surgery

Exactly Peter, some ppl just don't get it.

 

[hugsta]

A hybrid is man made, an integrade is naturally occuring.

 

[moosenoose]

yes, I know this, but isn't an intergrade something that occurs over millions of years? Isn't that what this discussion has been about? That if you cross these animals in captivity they become hybrids but if it happens in the wild throuh the evolutionary processes they are integrades? (still not half baked :wink: :lol

 

[SnakeWrangler]

Can you tell me that the integrade was a result of a diamond x coastal first?? Or can you tell me that a daimond was produced from an integradex coastal?? or that a coastal was produced from an integradexdaimond??

I think not.

I never tried to make this claim!! In fact when this was suggested I found it very interesting and in fact said that it seems more probable to me that it happened this way, if you really look at it, integrades have all the genetic information to produce all forms of Morelia spilota.

--EDIT--
Incidently, you claim I cannot say for sure the origin of any of those snakes, I agree I wasn't there to see it, but let me ask you, were you there to see the "apes become humans"??

This is a bit of a contradiction I think??
--EDIT--

Exactly Peter, some ppl just don't get it.

If I don't get it, then why can't you "squash" my theory?

In fact now you agree with me!!

A hybrid is man made, an integrade is naturally occuring.

The only real difference is the fact that one occurs naturally and the other does not!! This is what I have been saying from the start.

THE ONLY REAL DIFFERENCE IS OUR PERCEPTION OF THE SNAKES!!

 

[moosenoose]

As opposed to nonsense I suppose
Its not rocket surgery

Exactly Peter, some ppl just don't get it.

I'm afraid its appearing an awful lot like rocket science Huggy :lol: :lol:

HERE IS MY REASONING TO THE LAST 'Q' I WILL ASK ABOUT THIS:

1) CAN A INTERGRADE AND A PUREBLOOD MATE IN THE WILD??? (DIAMOND TO INTERGRADE - COASTAL TO INTEGRADE)

2) WHAT DOES IT THEN BECOME??: AN INTEGRADE OR A HYBRID??

3) IF IT BECOMES AN INTERGRADE IT PUTS THE MILLION YEAR + EVOLUTIONARY THEORY - "OUT THE WINDOW" (BECAUSE THIS CAN BE ACHIEVED IN CAPTIVITY)

4) AND IT APPEARS IT CANNOT BECOME A HYBRID! BECAUSE FROM WHAT I'VE BEEN TOLD, A HYBRID MEANS THE IMPOSSIBILITY OF HAVING 2 SPECIES MEET IN THE WILD AND MATE. THIS CAN ONLY BE DONE VIA HUMAN INTERVENTION (RIGHT?)

SO HERE IT IS (THE QUESTION THAT CANNOT BE ANSWERED :lol: :lol: (AND PLEASE ANSWER ALL OF MY QUESTIONS ABOVE UPON ASWERING THIS SO I KNOW WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON :lol

Q: CAN A BREEDER MAKE AN INTERGRADE? (it's not a trick question - it just needs an answer)

 

[moosenoose]

:cry: I JUST WANNA CRY!!!!! :cry: :lol: I'm soooooooooooooooo confused now! (again)

 

[bigguy]

Guys, nice debate going on here, but most have missed the point. We are talking sub species here , not true species. Sub species are where a true species has sub divided and altered due to climatic or geographical barriers. These differences of adaptation occurred over a long period of time.

Intergade zones are actually a buffer zone area where the species split into different forms(subspecies) so share charactoristics of both distinct forms. They WERE NOT formed were a wild Diamond bred with a wild Carpet somewhere in the past. They are actually the link where nature divided a species. They are neither pure Carpet or Diamond but a mixture of both colour forms as the species divided. This is why intergrades to the south mainly resemble Diamonds and to the north they mainly resemble Carpets.

Dee4, it is not uncommon to see intergrades that may look nearly completely like a pure Diamond or Carpet. Its only when you look very closely you may see some differences. In these cases people could easily be mislead into thinking they have a pure snake. As for Browns pics. No3 is obviously a intergrade. No1, even though very Diamondish in appearence, has some brownish colouration on its back. As for No2, from the pic I can not tell wether that was an intergrade or pure Diamond. I have seen heaps of Diamonds around Gosford that closely resemble that snake. Maybe if seen in real life some differences may be detected, but at the moment we can only go on the location given.

 

[Guest]

Its all a crock of _

Intergrades are/were made up so old school herpers could make money off newbies that didnt know any better. Its like hallmark and valentines day.

they are all just hybrids whether wild occuring or man-made.

Either buy them or dont buy them, thats all there is to it!!!

Integrade/hybrid...pfft, who cares!!!!

And yeah, im a newbie to it all, but i dont give a **** what people think, i love the hobby and will always love the hobby and the herps to go with it!!

ohhh controversy, i love it!!!!

<< You have been warned about swearing before on several occassions. Your account is suspended for 7 days. Please contact admin for your new password in a weeks time>>

 

[Snake Catcher Victoria]

makes sense to me bigguy

 

[bigguy]

Moose, to answer you question. If you breed 2 intergrades together the result is pure intergrade. If a pure intergrade bred with a pure Diamond or Carpet, it would be a hybid sharing different genectical fingerprints.

Intergrades were never wild hybrids, but rather where Diamonds slowly turned into Carpets as nature formed 2 sub species for some unknown reason(more then likely climate). They are virtually a subspecies in themselves, having a different genectical fingerprint then either Diamonds or Carpets.

 

[Tim]

Guys, nice debate going on here, but most have missed the point. We are talking sub species here , not true species. Sub species are where a true species has sub divided and altered due to climatic or geographical barriers. These differences of adaptation occurred over a long period of time.

Intergade zones are actually a buffer zone area where the species split into different forms(subspecies) so share charactoristics of both distinct forms. They WERE NOT formed were a wild Diamond bred with a wild Carpet somewhere in the past. They are actually the link where nature divided a species. They are neither pure Carpet or Diamond but a mixture of both colour forms as the species divided. This is why intergrades to the south mainly resemble Diamonds and to the north they mainly resemble Carpets.

Ok that makes sense, I think I'm following now

 

[moosenoose]

Moose, to answer you question. If you breed 2 intergrades together the result is pure intergrade. If a pure intergrade bred with a pure Diamond or Carpet, it would be a hybid sharing different genectical fingerprints.

Intergrades were never wild hybrids, but rather where Diamonds slowly turned into Carpets as nature formed 2 sub species for some unknown reason(more then likely climate). They are virtually a subspecies in themselves, having a different genectical fingerprint then either Diamonds or Carpets.

Bob, you're a champion and I love you (lol) - but you haven't answered my one question:

1) CAN A INTERGRADE AND A PUREBLOOD MATE IN THE WILD??? (DIAMOND TO INTERGRADE - COASTAL TO INTEGRADE)

2) WHAT DOES IT THEN BECOME??: AN INTEGRADE OR A HYBRID??

 

[bigguy]

Moose, I Did answer that question. Re read my posts. If it happened it would be a hybrid of 2 different genectical colour forms.

 

[moosenoose]

Moose, I Did answer that question. Re read my posts. If it happened it would be a hybrid of 2 different genectical colour forms.

So you are saying that hybrids can be created in the wild - but only hybrids in relation to colour?? Have I got it?? Darker ones to the south and lighter ones to the north.

I think it's fully clicked! I think :lol: