Breeding Debate

[hugsta]

Now there's something worth banding together about... The amount of pointless paperwork generated by keepers of the most common species is astronomical. And what purpose does it serve? It keeps government departments well staffed (not well enough in NSW!) doing a job that serves no purpose either.

I think some of the terms used to describe experienced breeders here are quite amusing... 'pros', 'old hats'... where do they come from?

Jamie

But I just got a new hat...

And just because someone has kept a snake for 10 or 15 years, it deos not make them experienced either. I would not call anyone that has kept 1 or 2 animals for that period of time experienced at all.

 

[Red-Ink]

What would qualify as "experienced"?

 

[Waterrat]

Neither would I hugsta but I don't know anyone who kept 1 or 2 animals for 15 years. The 'contagious herp infection' either gets you and go for more or it doesn't get you and you fall out very early.

 

[saximus]

But I just got a new hat...

And just because someone has kept a snake for 10 or 15 years, it deos not make them experienced either. I would not call anyone that has kept 1 or 2 animals for that period of time experienced at all.

I remember a thread/debate about that a little while. People were arguing that until you've owned a few animals and have had to deal with problem eaters, health issues etc you aren't experienced

 

[hugsta]

I remember a thread/debate about that a little while. People were arguing that until you've owned a few animals and have had to deal with problem eaters, health issues etc you aren't experienced

Exactly, if you buy one snake, let say a maccie for arguments sake, and it feeds well from the day you get it, what experience will get from it? The experience of keeping, yes, that's nice, but you can get that after a few weeks. Oh you probably also wonder why it has stopped feeding when it gets cold. But that's about it. Maybe a few vet checks but nothing major really. Compare that to someone that has 5 or 10 breeding females, or many more for that much, that they breed every year, that has done field trips, belongs to a herp society, read lots of books etc etc. Maybe been a member of WIRES or Sydney Wildlife and seen/handled and rehabilited many sick and injured reptiles..... All these things add to ones experiences in keeping/ breeding and understanding reptiles. Much more so than someone that has a pet mac for 20 years.

 

[Red-Ink]

Exactly, if you buy one snake, let say a maccie for arguments sake, and it feeds well from the day you get it, what experience will get from it? The experience of keeping, yes, that's nice, but you can get that after a few weeks. Oh you probably also wonder why it has stopped feeding when it gets cold. But that's about it. Maybe a few vet checks but nothing major really. Compare that to someone that has 5 or 10 breeding females, or many more for that much, that they breed every year, that has done field trips, belongs to a herp society, read lots of books etc etc. Maybe been a member of WIRES or Sydney Wildlife and seen/handled and rehabilited many sick and injured reptiles..... All these things add to ones experiences in keeping/ breeding and understanding reptiles. Much more so than someone that has a pet mac for 20 years.

I don't want to keep going around and around with this or seem like I'm starting all over but there's some inconsistency to the responses in the theme of this original debate.......

The other stuff, belonging to a club/society, field trips, books, research, handling and rehabilitation of sick and injured animals can be easily done by an enthusiastic newbie... the breeding, well how are they going to do that if their discouraged. Timeline wise all the other stuff (apart from breeding) can probably be knocked off by somebody in one or two years (a year even) if they have the get up and go...

I'm not trying to start things up again... just seeking clarification...

 

[Pythoninfinite]

We need to acknowledge that there are newcomers... and there are newcomers. I know a few kids/adults who are new to reptiles who have an attitude which would allow them to breed their animals the year they got them. They are the ones who absorb information like sponges, who seek as much info and advice as they can at every opportunity, and who are virtually obsessed with the subjects of their interest. They are the ones who listen to everything that's being said, and are able to differentiate between the relative values of what people tell them. These are the ones I encourage because they are a pleasure to spend time with, and I may well learn something from their experiences.

They are not the ones who set out at the start with pugnacious attitudes, who say I'll do what I damned well like whenever I damned well want to, and who decide to breed their animals on a week old whim, and who object strongly when it is suggested they put a bit of thought into their project before embarking on it. It may be a broad generalisation, but in my opinion these sorts of people usually have poor attitudes to animals, and consider their actions to be much more important than the consequences of their actions.

Eventually, if the herp community itself doesn't take a roll in mentoring newcomers and exerting some sort of self-control , the choices to 'do what we please' will be taken out of our hands. I would hate to see that happen, because we'll end up with a one-size-fits-all system where all of us are constrained in what we can do because of the thoughtless actions of a few.

Jamie

 

[Red-Ink]

Thanks Jamie....

We would have saved 12 pages of forum space if you got to post that on the first page.....

 

[Dannyboi]

Actually Jamie that is great. Much better than some of the stuff said on this thread.

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

I will not say much, just the following!

YouTube - bloodbankdragons's Channel

Don't stop watching because they are talking about ball pythons, it is very applicable to this thread!

 

[Snakeluvver2]

As per usual Jamie, nicely said.

We need to acknowledge that there are newcomers... and there are newcomers. I know a few kids/adults who are new to reptiles who have an attitude which would allow them to breed their animals the year they got them. They are the ones who absorb information like sponges, who seek as much info and advice as they can at every opportunity, and who are virtually obsessed with the subjects of their interest. They are the ones who listen to everything that's being said, and are able to differentiate between the relative values of what people tell them. These are the ones I encourage because they are a pleasure to spend time with, and I may well learn something from their experiences.

They are not the ones who set out at the start with pugnacious attitudes, who say I'll do what I damned well like whenever I damned well want to, and who decide to breed their animals on a week old whim, and who object strongly when it is suggested they put a bit of thought into their project before embarking on it. It may be a broad generalisation, but in my opinion these sorts of people usually have poor attitudes to animals, and consider their actions to be much more important than the consequences of their actions.

Eventually, if the herp community itself doesn't take a roll in mentoring newcomers and exerting some sort of self-control , the choices to 'do what we please' will be taken out of our hands. I would hate to see that happen, because we'll end up with a one-size-fits-all system where all of us are constrained in what we can do because of the thoughtless actions of a few.

Jamie

Thanks for all the advice you have given!

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I guess all I'm trying to say is that 'we're not alone...'. Reptile keepers already verge on being persecuted by bureaucratic overmanagement in most parts of Australia, and adding the welfare of unwanted animals to the arguments about why we need to be more controlled by bureaucracy won't help. Has nothing to do with money or profits or trespassing on the sacred ground of 'old hat' (lol) breeders. In an ideal world, people should be able to breed what they like, but just as with the uncontrolled breeding of cats & dogs, there are always consequences down the line.

I have bred GTPs, I love the species (even though they won't set the world alight with their activity levels!) and I enjoy having them. I would hope that anyone with an interest in breeding them would feel confident about seeking advice from me, whether their animals came from me or not. There's always a very good chance that I could learn from someone else's experiences as well. In the long-run, keeping secrets does no one any good...

Jamie

 

[cement]

I don't want to keep going around and around with this or seem like I'm starting all over but there's some inconsistency to the responses in the theme of this original debate.......

The other stuff, belonging to a club/society, field trips, books, research, handling and rehabilitation of sick and injured animals can be easily done by an enthusiastic newbie... the breeding, well how are they going to do that if their discouraged. Timeline wise all the other stuff (apart from breeding) can probably be knocked off by somebody in one or two years (a year even) if they have the get up and go...

I'm not trying to start things up again... just seeking clarification...

Well seeing as you are looking for clarification.... even with a good quantity of get up and go, one years efforts is barely going to scratch the surface. Even by participation in all the above listed herp activities, one or two years is barely crawling before walking. Newcomers to the hobby that are humble about their experience levels will ALWAYS receive helpful advice from experienced herpers. I find most people who have doing herps for a long time are very genuine and down to earth people.

If you want to breed snakes then breed them. But breeding snakes isn't rocket science and really no big deal.

 

[cris]

I can go to a pet shop and buy platies or swordtails(now establislished ecological pests?), why should common native reptiles that are ecologically insignificant be restiricted? Simple answer is no reason. Im not against petshops selling established pests (especially cats with not permit) but the government stance on herps is something only Eric Cartman cound describe :lol:

Why The Friggin over reglation?

 

[Red-Ink]

Well seeing as you are looking for clarification.... even with a good quantity of get up and go, one years efforts is barely going to scratch the surface. Even by participation in all the above listed herp activities, one or two years is barely crawling before walking. Newcomers to the hobby that are humble about their experience levels will ALWAYS receive helpful advice from experienced herpers. I find most people who have doing herps for a long time are very genuine and down to earth people.

If you want to breed snakes then breed them. But breeding snakes isn't rocket science and really no big deal.

Thanks for that cement... I guess it comes down to the reasoning that we all just have different levels and standards for experience...

 

[hugsta]

Thanks Jamie....

We would have saved 12 pages of forum space if you got to post that on the first page.....

But where is the fun in that..???

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I do have spooky powers... but I've never been able to anticipate discussion twists & turns 12 pages in advance lol!

J

 

[Snake_Whisperer]

Wow. Over a cuppa with a "big name breeder" recently, we were discussing the state of the hobby, and the lack of manners and common courtesy. He was not far off the mark judging by the quality of posts in this thread. As a "noob" myself, I had no idea that this "old hat" has been secretly feeding me misleading information to actually detract from my learning! It is clear now that I should stick to learning from the internet as it is the only way to be sure that I receive intelligent, well thought out and presented information. Thank you internet!

 

[Cockney_Red]

Good thread, and as always, the "OLD HATS" fit on my head very comfortably. This hobby would not exist without them...respect as always, goes out you old farts....

 

[Wookie]

Wow. Over a cuppa with a "big name breeder" recently, we were discussing the state of the hobby, and the lack of manners and common courtesy. He was not far off the mark judging by the quality of posts in this thread.

I am sure that the content of APS isn't indicative of the hobby. ALL keepers I have met/worked with/purchased from have been great.