Breeding Debate

[Elapidae1]

I think that at the root of all those arguments is the welfare of the progeny Fugawi.

 

[Waterrat]

Let me try to objectively summarise the (for the sake of argument I'll call them Professional/pro Breeders) Pro breeders arguments.

Noobs shouldn't breed because;
a;They are in it for the wrong reasons. Not necessarily but some are.
b;They are only in it for the money. Not necessarily but some are.
c;They don't have the experience. True, but that's ton a reason not to breed.
d;They won't get any experience anyway, even with the common breeds. What is experience? At least they will get some pleasure out of for sure.
e;They are flooding the market. Yes.
f;They will sell only sick, unhealthy, badly bred animals. Rubbish!
g;They will destroy the hobby. No, whingers like you may.
h;They ask stupid questions. Very often they do because they're lazy to read books.

Did I miss any? Yes - the truth and common sense. Conclusion.......If we allow noobs to breed anything, they will destroy the world as we know it. What a crap! Therefore it is best to leave all reptile breeding to the professional breeders. Please explain and name "professional breeders" or at least give some examples.

Is it just me or do these arguments just look ridiculous when put together. They look very ridiculous because they are ridiculous - you are the author .....

Fugawi, can I ask - are you a newbie to this hobby or gust a stirrer?

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I think it's you fugawi - I thought you showed some reason a bit earlier... but that chip is still there. I think you may need reading glasses too, it seems you've missed all the reasoned arguments, both for and against.

They do look ridiculous when put together, but they're entirely of your own making... you can draw your own conclusions. You haven't been around for very long if you think generalisations like that are anything like the real world.

Jamie

 

[fugawi]

How do you come to that conclusion? Are you saying that only noobs do these things? That the Pros don't? That the Pros prime consideration is the welfare of the animals and that someone new to breeding won't look after the babies?

 

[Waterrat]

Whom are you talking to, Steve, Jamie or me? Are you really 44 years of age?

 

[waruikazi]

Well done Fugawi, you have dragged this thread down to the gutter.

 

[saximus]

For those who have forgotten after 9 pages :

I see thread after thread where inexperienced keepers are asking about breeding requirements and are repeatedly told not to breed for the good of the market by more experienced breeders. Though this may be correct, it seems wrong to discourage new keepers from breeding, while the old hats continue to breed their own stock. I think if people are aware the difficulty they may go through trying to sell garden variety animals, they are more than welcome to breed their pets because I'm sure after losing money and time while stressing to sell offspring they won't want to breed again. This way they are still retaining the experience and joy of breeding. It seems very unfair to frag a keeper for breeding when it was the old hats who have done their part (along with new breeders) to flood the market each year. Please don't get me wrong, many inexperienced keepers post ridiculously retarded questions and definitely should not breed, though some are simply very keen for the experience. And I'm also not saying long time breeders are bad, they have contributed a lot to the hobby, developed and refined many traits or morphs and made snakes much cheaper for me to buy today .

Everybody feel free to contribute. Pros/cons of breeding in the current market

I personally think that a lot of the most "experienced" and "influential" members on this site had gone a long way to explaining the responses they give to new breeders when they ask stupid questions without doing any research. Most seem like very reasonable people and usually have the welfare of the animals in mind most of all. Prior to this thread I thought pretty differently about those attitudes and I'm personally very glad this came up to help clarify things. Apparently though I was wrong or this message was lost on certain members though...

 

[Red-Ink]

Fugawi... you've even lost me on that one mate and I'm for newbies having a go at breeding so that's saying a lot.... The arguments are devissive mate and of no real help as Jamie said just seems like a bit of a chip...

 

[KaotikJezta]

Hmm...I have read this thread with great interest being a relative newbie to the whole reptile keeping hobby. I have my passions and I can name all of them here, some are very cheap and prolific, Bearded Dragons, Water Dragons, some have become a lot cheaper Womas, Boyds, and some are about the same as when I first started Frill Necks, Ridge Tailed Monitors, Angle Heads. I have a pair of Maccies, sold to me as a breeding pair, that bred a few years ago and due to inexperience and lack of help from either the person we purchased from or anyone else really we lost all the hatchies. I was devastated as I am very attached to all my animals reptile and otherwise. I had the sense to realise that Maccies were not an ideal first snake to breed due to the feeding difficulties, it was just unfortunate no one told me this before I bred them. Especially the person I bought them off who was more than helpful before I purchased them but didn't want to know after they had the money. I learnt from it the hard way and have not yet bred them again. They are still really awesome snakes and the fact I am not breeding them makes no difference and I would never part with them just because I am not making money off them. I now have a pair of hatchling womas on hold awaiting my advanced licence. I chose them very carefully and read everything I could about them before deciding on them. I have always loved them since I first ever discovered them when they were way out of my price range. It is a dream come true for me to be able to own them. It is probably a girl thing but I love there little faces. I was offered older animals but I wanted to grow and learn with them. Yes I would like to breed them for the experience and joy and excitement of it. Unlike the Maccies though, I know I will have a good support back-up from the people I purchased them off. If ,when they are of breeding age, the market is flooded, I also have the common sense to realize breeding is not a good idea as I would more than likely have a bunch of tiny snakes to care for indefinately. I am not in it for the money and would happily trade or give animals to people I believed would give them the best home possible. It has taken me 5 years to amass my feeble collection of 2 maccies, 2 gippies, 1 eastern water dragon and now the 2 womas as I wanted each one to be perfectly set up before getting the next. I am in it for the love of the animals before anything else. I only recently got my 2 Gippies because I am about to upgrade my Eastern to a new enclosure. And if they turn out to be two boys looks like I'll have three huge outdoor enclosures down the track haha. I do understand why some more experienced keepers get frustrated with new people and have read some questions that make the mind boggle. But it would be nice to know that those experienced breeders were there to offer support and help when genuinely needed as none of us can ever know everything.

 

[fugawi]

I'm not the one making generalisations.....Every one of those points have been brought up in this thread. I believe anyone with an interest in breeding should give it a go.
I personally have kept reptiles for 11-12 yrs, I have read every book, paper, literature on reptiles, especially Aus natives that I can get my hands on. I have an insatiable appetite for information on the subject. I am a keen 4wder and bushwalker and don't go anywhere without my DSLR in search of herps. I am about to start my degree in natural studies/ animal studies to be followed by herpetology at James Cook Uni. I haven't bred any herps yet but have had 10-15 yrs experience breeding Siberian Huskies, was in the siberian husky club, malamute club and registered with the canine council. I bred high pedigree pure bred sibes and gave them to friends...free. I haven't bred reptiles before so yes I must be a NOOB, therefore by definition I should never breed reptiles......ever.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I haven't bred reptiles before so yes I must be a NOOB, therefore by definition I should never breed reptiles......ever.

Gee, I hope your reasoning and interpretive powers develop before you start studying fugawi, or you'll not be able to make sense of any sorts of technical texts. You seem to have a one track mind.



Noobs shouldn't breed because;
a;They are in it for the wrong reasons.
b;They are only in it for the money.
c;They don't have the experience.
d;They won't get any experience anyway, even with the common breeds.
e;They are flooding the market.
f;They will sell only sick, unhealthy, badly bred animals.
g;They will destroy the hobby.
h;They ask stupid questions.

If these aren't generalisations, I don't know what is...

J

 

[waruikazi]

Let's just change the topic slightly, just to make a small comparison which may or may not be appropriate.

As a registered dog breeder, what is your opinion on back yard breeders?

I'm not the one making generalisations.....Every one of those points have been brought up in this thread. I believe anyone with an interest in breeding should give it a go.
I personally have kept reptiles for 11-12 yrs, I have read every book, paper, literature on reptiles, especially Aus natives that I can get my hands on. I have an insatiable appetite for information on the subject. I am a keen 4wder and bushwalker and don't go anywhere without my DSLR in search of herps. I am about to start my degree in natural studies/ animal studies to be followed by herpetology at James Cook Uni. I haven't bred any herps yet but have had 10-15 yrs experience breeding Siberian Huskies, was in the siberian husky club, malamute club and registered with the canine council. I bred high pedigree pure bred sibes and gave them to friends...free. I haven't bred reptiles before so yes I must be a NOOB, therefore by definition I should never breed reptiles......ever.

 

[saximus]

Let's just change the topic slightly, just to make a small comparison which may or may not be appropriate.

As a registered dog breeder, what is your opinion on back yard breeders?

I've often been curious to hear someone make this comparison too...

 

[AUSHERP]

The argument was not against all noobs, how could it be?
What was said was the noobs that ask ridiculous questions "can my beardie live with a lacie, i want to X breed" are discouraged from breeding because they clearly haven't even got a grasp on the fundamentals of keeping.
What was also said was that noobs who have only entered the hobby to make money should not because their gain would be minimal and their opinions on the hobby are unwanted because they are un-educated on the inner workings of it.
Noobs that ask genuine keeping/breeding questions are encouraged and welcomed, most of the big breeders that you are attacking have written countless husbandry guides that are a fantastic, selfless resource for anyone who wants them.......... I don't understand the mud slinging.

 

[Waterrat]

May I put my view forward ... and then I go. Please do not try interpret what I say into your way of thinking (especially you fugawi), I try to clear as much as I can.

A lot on newbies are entering into the hobby with the idea of breeding reptiles as soon as they get them or as soon as their snakes reach maturity, they often choose species that will breed soon. If that's their main objective, so be it but some basic keeping experience and a sound knowledge about their chosen species should a prerequisite.
They should also consider the costs and time involved in breeding and rearing the young and realistically plan their disposal. If someone comes onto the forum asking which species brings good money when bred, they should be explained the facts and that without too much delicate handling - there is no room for such individuals in the hobby because there is every chance the welfare of the animals they acquire and breed will be compromised. It's our duty to discourage them.
Flooding the market is not a fault of newbies, every keeper who breeds excessively is contributing to this problem. The "destruction" of the hobby was mentioned - it would take an army of very stupid newbies to effect the hobby adversely but illegal importation can have a devastating effect if continued. I am not going to comment on Jags, hybrids, etc..
From what have seen on this forum, most, if not all the more experienced keepers are happy to help with advice or in kind (if geographically possible) but it would be nice if the newbie's questions were formulated in an intelligent and polite style. How often do we see threads titled "I suppose this is a stupid question but" what does it say about the person and his/her question?

That's all, it's almost time for a glass of red.

 

[KaotikJezta]

Let's just change the topic slightly, just to make a small comparison which may or may not be appropriate.

As a registered dog breeder, what is your opinion on back yard breeders?

I think that is a bit different as no domesticated dog pedigree or otherwise is actually from a pure line and more often than not "purebred" dogs have all sorts of genetic problems from selective breeding programs and inbreeding that a lot of "mongrels" don't have. But I guess the same could be said about breeding albino animals and designer types of any species. I don't know how it works with reptiles, but many dog and cat breeders will have imperfect animals destroyed rather than find them good pet homes.

 

[waruikazi]

That question was aimed at Fugawi and his twisted interpretations. I didn't post it to compare the two practices.

I'm curious as to why he would bother to affiliate with the ANKC when he could just be a backyard breeder instead.

I think that is a bit different as no domesticated dog pedigree or otherwise is actually from a pure line and more often than not "purebred" dogs have all sorts of genetic problems from selective breeding programs and inbreeding that a lot of "mongrels" don't have. But I guess the same could be said about breeding albino animals and designer types of any species. I don't know how it works with reptiles, but many dog and cat breeders will have imperfect animals destroyed rather than find them good pet homes.

 

[hugsta]

Also keep in mind most high end dog breeders will sell limited amounts to be bred from, the others are sold and must be desexed as part of the terms of purchase. So maybe that is what the larger breeders should do, work on getting reptiles desexed so you cannot breed from their lines.

 

[waruikazi]

He's become very quiet all of a sudden. Nothing but a troll. Trolls shouldn't breed. Neither should Ricky Nixon.

 

[Waterrat]

Ahhh, hugsta, you are an inspiration. I can just see my new ad: "cyclone-proof desexed Yasi chondros" ... discount on pairs. :lol::lol::lol: