Culling off weak reptiles?

[kupper]

After having a lengthy discussion with a friend about this topic I have another interesting aspect that I will throw into the mix for you :

All our wildlife that we hold so dearly are at the end of the day protected fauna , a friend made the argument that we as keepers are not qualified to make a decision on what an animals quality of life is going to be

Is a vet going to cull an animal that is deemed unsuitable by the breeder or keeper for non feeding , colour , physical deformities?

I personally feel the same way as my first post

 

[kbepythons]

Great thread. Very interesting replies. I know were i would rather bye my snakes. Of course would be off people i know cull the week and only keep the stuff that is 110%

 

[kbepythons]

In my experience people save and save there hard earned cash for snakes. We often have people comming in and putting stuff on hold for a few weeks.Thats why i think they deserve the best qulity snakes posible. If that means culling the others than in my opinon thats what need to be done. at least you no your snake has the best start for a long and prosperous life.
would you buy a new couch with a rip in it or a t.v that only worked some times.

 

[pythons73]

In the wild only the strong survive,why should it be any different in captivity...(This applies to all animals).Considering every man and dog are breeding more so now then before..IMO any that have deformities etc should be culled,its not far for the animal in Q....Generally once hatchies are born you can usually tell if any have deformities straight away,or within weeks..As for fussy feeders,as i said previuosly..I had a chondro that was forced fed for 12months,it ate the first night with me,different enviroment might of made a difference,in this case it did.....How long is long enough to say its a fussy feeder,or just wont feed at all....

 

[termin8or]

I have read this post in entirety in one sitting. My head hurts

Wow a lot to take in and some very interesting points of view.

Now I'll start by saying i have not bred any reptiles, but i do care about the quality of life that i provide for the animals i do own. I guess when i do start to breed i may be face with this concern and will make my choice on a case by case scenario.
Which ever way i go i will be making sure that it is the most humane, not the easiest for me. I have chosen to bring a life into this world and i will do everything within my power to make sure it has a quality of life that i would myself want. This does not mean i'll make it a fluffy bed and play music to sooth it. We all have to be realistic.

Right from the start i thought that myself "Well in the wild the lame and weak either die or get eaten" and was happy to see that someone else had the same thought process.

I have bought "sick" (a 3 legged beardie plus others) animals from people in the hope of saving them. It was one of the most painful things to watch this animal grow a lot slower than the rest but it had one of the most interesting personalities. I had wished that i never had bought them but i also learned a lot about how to care for these animals

In the end everyone one has a different opinion about what is right and wrong. This is due to so many reasons: our religious beliefs, our morals, our parents, where we grew up and our life experiences all determine what is right or wrong for us. (its called the iceberg principal, we only see 10% of what makes up a person). We all have valid points in our own opinion and that's exactly what it is our opinion.

I appreciate many people putting in their 2 cents worth as it brings up other issues that i may not have thought about, which will help me to decide for myself.

One final point: A single amateur built the arc, a team of experts built the Titanic and we all know how that ended up.

 

[giggle]

After having a lengthy discussion with a friend about this topic I have another interesting aspect that I will throw into the mix for you :

All our wildlife that we hold so dearly are at the end of the day protected fauna , a friend made the argument that we as keepers are not qualified to make a decision on what an animals quality of life is going to be

Is a vet going to cull an animal that is deemed unsuitable by the breeder or keeper for non feeding , colour , physical deformities?

I personally feel the same way as my first post

Well... you couldn't argue that a vet is qualified to assess an animals fitness to live, right? My vet agrees with me. My vet see's the results of animals that are given away to free homes as well. My vet isnt a reptile expert... but still... she is a very experienced and competent veterinarian.

Termin8tor... many would be surprised to know I also own a three legged beardie Her existence in my life solidified my beliefs. Life is a struggle for her weekly. And now I have to decide whether to let go or not.

This is a heartbreak I would spare any future keepers. I didn't know what I was getting myself into once upon a time.

 

[Colin]

keep on topic please.. to avoid me "post culling"
thank you

I have no problem culling "posts" with inherent disabilities

 

[Wally]

I guess I'll state my position again post cull.

I have no problem culling reptiles with inherent disabilities.

 

[Kristy_07]

Thanks, Colin.

The question seems to have boiled down to what should be considered a weak enough trait to justify culling the individual animal? I suppose this would also depend on how big your collection is and how much time you have to spend on each animal. I think just about everyone has agreed that major deformities should be culled, but what about the animals in more of a grey area?

If a hatchie needs to be force fed for 6mths but then feeds strongly and subsequently catches up in size, should it be bred from, or culled because of it's initial 6mths?

Giggle, I hand feed my beardie every day, anyway... I'm sure I would do the same with a tripod, so there must be others that would do the same, and the loss of the 4th leg would make little difference to keeper or lizard? Also, losing a foot, tail, leg to another animal when young (which is common for overcrowded beardies) isn't at any genetic fault of the animal, so why, if they are otherwise healthy, and the special husbandry needs are taken care of (hand feeding etc.), couldn't they be used in a breeding project?

 

[Colin]

but what about the animals in more of a grey area?

If a hatchie needs to be force fed for 6mths but then feeds strongly and subsequently catches up in size, should it be bred from, or culled because of it's initial 6mths?

how long is a piece of string? theres no one answer to these issues and each animal has to be assessed on an individiual basis by each individual breeder.. some may have slightly different valid criteria than another. you cant say one's right and ones wrong..
in other words.. its a personal thing in my opinion and the responsibility of each person faced with these issues.

 

[Wally]

Interesting Kristy and I agree with this grey area. I shall give an example.

One of my vitticeps offspring from last year seemed a little different right from the moment it hatched. From a clutch of 19 she was defiantly the smallest. Very early on I noticed that her breathing was very laboured. This has continued to this day. Nothing wrong with her appetite, is alert and interactive with me when hand feed and very inquisitive. Compared to a sibling that I also kept, she is tiny. She will be kept as a part of my collection and I will not euth her at this stage, but it's a good question. Where is the tipping point?

 

[xxMelissaxx]

Where is the tipping point?

That's totally dependent on the individual breeder, their beliefs and their circumstances.

 

[Elapidae1]

That's totally dependent on the individual breeder, their beliefs and their circumstances.

And the species.

 

[Wally]

That's totally dependent on the individual breeder, their beliefs and their circumstances.

Yes, if circumstances were different the outcome for her would be different.

 

[giggle]

Giggle, I hand feed my beardie every day, anyway... I'm sure I would do the same with a tripod, so there must be others that would do the same, and the loss of the 4th leg would make little difference to keeper or lizard? Also, losing a foot, tail, leg to another animal when young (which is common for overcrowded beardies) isn't at any genetic fault of the animal, so why, if they are otherwise healthy, and the special husbandry needs are taken care of (hand feeding etc.), couldn't they be used in a breeding project?

Interestingly... feeding isnt her problem... nor my concern with whether or not I take her to the vet for that final last step.
She feeds well. She catches them well. She is interested in food, even when she isnt feeling well.
Her stump, is a daily irritation to her. To keep her healthy, I bathe her regularly, which at times gives her relief. As she gets older, her breathing becomes more laboured. As a result, she spends most of her day lazing around, at best. I know she is unhappy. I used to have her on my lap a lot of the time, this perked her up alot. Why, I guess body warmth. She refuses to bask. But recently I have had to take a job and I can no longer bathe her up to three times a week and every single day when she is ill. I can not watch her all day long to make sure she is getting up to bask and eat. Passing her off onto someone else would be unethical. Now I have a very tough choice to make.

 

[xxMelissaxx]

And the species.

How so?

 

[cement]

I too have a beardy that is the proud owner of three feet and half a tail. Due to being slow as a hatchy and feasted on by its siblings. He does well, is 4 yrs old eats like a champion, and is a superb bright orange in the sun (almost fluoro).
All he needed was a chance to get a feed away from the crowded situation he was born into. It was a gift because the owner didn't think it would survive and it was missing limbs.I am glad he wasn't culled off, he is great.

 

[cement]

But I have had hatchlings that i have spent a lot of money on at the vet, and time administering to them only to have them die anyway. So it would have been the best thing for them.

 

[Elapidae1]

How so?

Humans generally place less significance on certain animals. The larger softer more intelligent the animal the more likely it is to play on ones conscience. I personally could put down a small Egernia species more easily than a Python.

 

[Colin]

Interestingly... feeding isnt her problem... nor my concern with whether or not I take her to the vet for that final last step.
She feeds well. She catches them well. She is interested in food, even when she isnt feeling well.
Her stump, is a daily irritation to her. To keep her healthy, I bathe her regularly, which at times gives her relief. As she gets older, her breathing becomes more laboured. As a result, she spends most of her day lazing around, at best. I know she is unhappy. I used to have her on my lap a lot of the time, this perked her up alot. Why, I guess body warmth. She refuses to bask. But recently I have had to take a job and I can no longer bathe her up to three times a week and every single day when she is ill. I can not watch her all day long to make sure she is getting up to bask and eat. Passing her off onto someone else would be unethical. Now I have a very tough choice to make.

as I said before these issues are a personal thing in my opinion and the responsibility of each person faced with them.. I guess its a decision where you feel her quality of life has deteriated to a point where she's suffering.

Its the same choices people with dogs, cats and other pets face when an animal gets sick or very old and is suffering.. when these times are reached it can be cruel and morally unethical to let them continue to suffer and the best thing to humanely euthanise them for the sake of the animal.