Culling off weak reptiles?

[xxMelissaxx]

Humans generally place less significance on certain animals. The larger softer more intelligent the animal the more likely it is to play on ones conscience. I personally could put down a small Egernia species more easily than a Python.

Agreed. Thanks for elaborating.

 

[giggle]

I too have a beardy that is the proud owner of three feet and half a tail. Due to being slow as a hatchy and feasted on by its siblings. He does well, is 4 yrs old eats like a champion, and is a superb bright orange in the sun (almost fluoro).
All he needed was a chance to get a feed away from the crowded situation he was born into. It was a gift because the owner didn't think it would survive and it was missing limbs.I am glad he wasn't culled off, he is great.

He is gorgeous But my girl is missing her front leg. She has an awkward gait. I had had a lot of problems with substrate for her.

Your boy is lucky to have a back foot missing My girl has just under her elbow missing. She is a fighter, I do have to say she is and has always been my favourite.

 

[Australis]

.....[9]Native animals and birds should be maintained safely in their natural environment and should be free from hunting, trapping and captivity...

RSPCA doesn't even want you (us) to keep Native animals in the first place. Thats the most telling part of the charter.

 

[giggle]

as I said before these issues are a personal thing in my opinion and the responsibility of each person faced with them.. I guess its a decision where you feel her quality of life has deteriated to a point where she's suffering.

Its the same choices people with dogs, cats and other pets face when an animal gets sick or very old and is suffering.. when these times are reached it can be cruel and morally unethical to let them continue to suffer and the best thing to humanely euthanise them for the sake of the animal.

Its hard to do though... and I feel a bit of guilt that I persisted for as long as I did. Selfishness. I considered maybe if I just got her well enough to travel I could pay to have her sent to someone else. lol

Kick me if I haven't gone ahead by the end of the week.

 

[giggle]

RSPCA doesn't even want you (us) to keep Native animals in the first place. Thats the most telling part of the charter.

Most 'animal rights' groups would have us release all our captive animals... dogs, cats, birds, reptiles... so they can live natural lives! *sigh*

There have been many cases of animals becoming extinct in the wild and only kept alive by being kept as captives.

 

[Australis]

There have been many cases of animals becoming extinct in the wild and only kept alive by being kept as captives.

Well on ex-situ conservation (or not for conservation), high fecundity species like Carpet pythons would (likely) benefit from culling in captivity.

 

[termin8or]

Just for a bit of clarification

My 3 legged beardie was born with only 3 legs as the owner had bred an eastern an central beardie (at the time i didn't know that). You could see the tiny little "pimple" that was supposed to be the arm. It was also the front leg, which made it hard for it to move around. At the time the owner said do you want to buy it or i'll end up feeding to my other beardie. I didn't want that to happen, so i bought it. I spent more hours on that one beardie than i did the rest of my collection. In Hind sight i should have not bought the beardie and then let the irresponsible breeder make the choice of whether or not to let it live or die.

Like i said for me its a case by case situation, plus i don't like animal cruelty.

 

[wokka]

From the discussion to date alot of decisions are based upon the value of the animal.
The opening post implies its ok to give "faulty" animals away but not to sell them.
If it is a welfare based decision price shouldn't matter...........or should it?

 

[pythons73]

From the discussion to date alot of decisions are based upon the value of the animal.
The opening post implies its ok to give "faulty" animals away but not to sell them.
If it is a welfare based decision price shouldn't matter...........or should it?

It shouldnt matter at all Wokka,doesnt matter if its a coastal or albino carpet...If its the welfare of the animal the value of the reptile shouldnt even play a part of the decision...

 

[giggle]

hey termin8tor I was given mine as a second thought, for free, by the breeder. A freebie. I guess like a lot in this thread, the breeder thought they were doing the right thing or couldnt bare the responsibility of doing the right thing.
I thought I would be doing a good thing by taking her on. At one stage I had to sell up some of my beardies and I had to move a quality animal on in her place because she wouldn't be able to find a home with a missing leg and as she aged her care was becoming more intensive. As a young beardie missing a front leg they seem kind of ok, they can move reasonably well. As they get bigger and heavier, it becomes a problem.

I shouldn't have taken her. But the partner I was with at the time fell in love with her and wouldn't let me do otherwise. Common sense was telling me no. But she was awfully cute.

Her case is one of those things, where the line should have been drawn. I would love to know if anyone has had a beardie missing a front leg that wasn't labour intensive?

If I were to breed beardies (and I wont because this has definitely put me off) any babies without front legs would be culled. Back legs are perhaps a different story.

Wokka... I don't believe in giving away faulty animals at all.

1. adopters don't always understand the gravity of what they are getting themselves into.
2. people who don't pay for their animal, often do not value their life.
3. some people see it as a chance to get rich quick, acquiring free animals to breed and make money off the offspring.
4. a breeder is passing off the responsibility of that animals life and possible pain and maintenance to someone else, this in my opinion is unethical.

Even if I had a $7000 animal that needed euthanising... I would have it euthanised.

 

[vitticep]

For those that say killing off a fussy feeder is ok.

As stated the majority of fussy feeders feed extremely well once they work it.
Their diet has a lot of variety they dont get offered in captivity,
To say in the wild they would be fussy and die anyway is incorrect.
A bold feeder may die just as easily, kookaburras aren't selective,
If you had a unique morph hatch and was a slow feeder, and you had a standard carpet that was a slow feeder, which would you euthanize first? OR would you put the work and effort in to get the morph feeding???
Yes, you know the answer, which negates your arguement.
True, one or two hatchlings per season might be a huge hassle, but it is the mark of a good breeder to get his snakes feeding, If you have inadequacies in this department, maybe you should breed less or reconsider your feeding techniques.
Culling hatchlings because they dont smash the food the first 3 times is a sad state of the hobby.
Also highlights how the 'big breeders' see the 'future'.
Anything that is deformed should be euthanized immediately, Ive never understood the 'freak show' collectors that want 2 headed animals or 1 eyed animals etc.

 

[Elapidae1]

Good points I can't see many people not putting effort into very high value animals

 

[Troy K.]

Good points I can't see many people not putting effort into very high value animals

Problem or deformed, no matter what the animal is worth gets culled my way. Exception being if it is a new or rare morph, like an Albino GTP or a Piebald Woma. These animals would be kept and worked on even if they had problems until the first F1 back crosses or het to het matings from the first lot of offspring were done and then the founder animals wouldn't be used again while we tried to strengthen the line. Unless the animal was in pain of course, then it would be culled. Hope this makes sense.

 

[Elapidae1]

It makes perfect sense. However I'm not sure many would live by the same ethics if they thought they could be depriving their back pocket

 

[Den from Den Pythons]

I've culled a limited number of designer animals that were not up to scratch physically. If these animals were seen in the flesh prior to being euthanised most designer BHP fans would cry at seeing them go, but selective breeing isn't just about keeping the best of the best. I could have sold them for a discount, or even near top dollar given their appearance and the genetics held but all I would be doing is risking the 'injection' of weaker blood into the 'line' or future generations. Exceptions are only made with something truly unique, exceptional or new. And as Troy said, in these cases the animal in question would be kept back and outcrossed.

Obviously some people shudder at the thought of euthanising an animal, or seeing something be euthanised that may "pull through with attention and time". I respect their views. But myself, and certain other breeders, are breeding to ensure future generations are as strong as they can be in all aspects of feeding, health and finally appearance. Ensuring all animals that are produced and passed on are as good as I would expect or would want to own myself.

 

[kupper]

Problem or deformed, no matter what the animal is worth gets culled my way. Exception being if it is a new or rare morph, like an Albino GTP or a Piebald Woma. These animals would be kept and worked on even if they had problems until the first F1 back crosses or het to het matings from the first lot of offspring were done and then the founder animals wouldn't be used again while we tried to strengthen the line. Unless the animal was in pain of course, then it would be culled. Hope this makes sense.

Troy are you saying you have a piebald woma :lol:

 

[No-two]

If you breed reptiles consistantly you can get a feel of hatchies that just aren't upto it pretty early on. I've culled in the past and will do in the future.

When it comes to things like tail kinks thoguh, what happens with animals that get them later on. I had a perfect WB stimmie, I noticed had a kinked tail after this breeding season, I assume it was the males fault as she didn't have it prior to introductions. Its not the same as having them hatch with it.

 

[Sock Puppet]

When it comes to things like tail kinks thoguh, what happens with animals that get them later on. I had a perfect WB stimmie, I noticed had a kinked tail after this breeding season, I assume it was the males fault as she didn't have it prior to introductions. Its not the same as having them hatch with it.

But where does one draw the line. From memory, & please correct me if I'm wrong, the Snake Ranch albino mac ("Ribald Rodney") was born with a kink but has since straigtened & now there are descendants on the market. They wouldn't be available if that original animal had been knocked on the head early on because of the kink. I guess this is the sort of scenario that Den mentioned that it'd have to be something special for him to persist with an animal like that.

 

[No-two]

But where does one draw the line. From memory, & please correct me if I'm wrong, the Snake Ranch albino mac ("Ribald Rodney") was born with a kink but has since straigtened & now there are descendants on the market. They wouldn't be available if that original animal had been knocked on the head early on because of the kink. I guess this is the sort of scenario that Den mentioned that it'd have to be something special for him to persist with an animal like that.

Something like that is always going to be kept and outcrosed to reduce the problem.

 

[Troy K.]

Troy are you saying you have a piebald woma :lol:

Did have a piedball but the thing wouldn't eat for me and well, you know the rest

Jokes people. I don't have one.