DECC minimum enclosure size discussion.

[wokka]

The DECC does not have duristriction over exhibitors.



As far as I am aware cage/tub sizes for hatchlings and sub adults are perfectly reasonable.I have no information regarding penalties at this stage.

I am not sure that that is correct. One of the problems is that the draft has no distinction between sub adults and adults, so anything beyond hatchling must be kept in an adult size cage

 

[wokka]

G'day where does it say the minimum cage sizes are only guidlines in Victoria's Code of Practice? I couldn't find that anywhere in there. I hope you;re right.

It appears Slitherins racks are indeed too small for most pythons according to the minimum size requirements.listed the Victoria Code. Even Slitherins largest "boa" tub is not tall enough for woma pythons accordng to the Code.

From a legal point of view guidelines would be interpretted as rules in the absence of rules. They are therefore just as important to get right.
It is difficult to link cage size to species as there is great size variations within species. Adult Womas can vary from 1-2.5 meters in length and say 1-5 kg in weight.

 

[BJC-787]

sorry it was the ones that hand out the exhibitors licence (dpi i think)

 

[Slateman]

Well looks like we will know more next week. I just hope that my concern was wrong.

 

[Ramsayi]

From a legal point of view guidelines would be interpretted as rules in the absence of rules. They are therefore just as important to get right.
It is difficult to link cage size to species as there is great size variations within species. Adult Womas can vary from 1-2.5 meters in length and say 1-5 kg in weight.

Again as far as I am aware the current proposal does not take juvs into account,as it stands at the moment hatchlings and adults are covered.

Being that you are on the committee and have presumably read the draft and since you used womas as an example would you like to share with others what the min cage sizes are for that species bearing in mind that womas are being classed as a medium sized python?

The person trying to formulate this proposal has been hired on an 18 month contract which expires in December,my concern is what happens if he runs out of time as a result of the refusal of the committee to engage him in the consultation process?

At the end of the day the committee is representing the various herp societies around the state so why are members being kept in the dark as to how the committee is operating?

 

[Lozza]

At the end of the day the committee is representing the various herp societies around the state so why are members being kept in the dark as to how the committee is operating?

Definitely agree with you there! Why does it have to be kept secret??? Seems a bit silly to me...

 

[Slateman]

Definitely agree with you there! Why does it have to be kept secret??? Seems a bit silly to me...

I agree strongly.
Public should not be kept in dark. After all we pay for all this in our taxes.:x

 

[Simple]

Unforteatly when it come to government they like to give the impression that sittng down and talking works. Utimately government wants problems to go away. So generally who is creating the biggest problem wins (just to make it go away). I like to think we live in a democacy but the annoying minority always seems to come out on top and expecting common sense from a government department does not happen often. If an unrealistic cage size is approved there are going to be alot of new cages being built or a lot of homeless snakes. I hope that the committee that is going into bat for the reptile owners is on the ball.

 

[Jason]

Well i have had a very interesting discussion with a highly regarded member of one of the reptiles societies in regards to this topic. I was told that the general sizes of the enclosures they are looking at are fine and reasonable needing only a little recomendations from the keeping comity.
Basically large carpets need an enclosure a touch larger then a 4x2x2 so with the work of the group that is consulting with NPWS im sure they will come down to the generally excepted 4x2x2. GTP and RSP was somthing like 2.5x2x2, beardies also need about a 4x2x2. from what i gather alot of the talk we are hearing about the sizes being extremely large are fabricated crap essentially so the few members of the group can continue to push there interests, ie. NO regulations cause it doesnt suit them.

from what i can understand this group was put together to help and work with DECC and NPWS to come up with the sizes but from what i gather there is a couple of people that instead of actually helping come to an agreement they are just saying NO to any sizes. by doing this it would imo appear to be causing more issues and seems they only have there own interests in mind. i dont know who the members are or what there backgrounds are but i hope that they can come up with an agreement that is good to us all and only hope that the people in the group that are just being difficult by opposing the issue stop worying about there own agendas (which possibly may be that they themselves dont satisfy the new sizes) and remember they represent me and everyother member of the herp comunity!

If they cant come up with an agreement it will likely just be past onto another government group who wont give a stuff what the keepers want.

for those that are apart of the group that is consulting with the DECC etc, im not attacking you. what i hear may be wrong but what is bad is that me and everyone else on here is relying on what we are hearing and we dont really know what is fact and what is fiction.... im just stating what iv heard.

 

[Lozza]

So Jason have you heard what the antaresia sizes are? I'll be peeved if slitherin racks are considered too small...
Also are geckos going to be included in the size regulations?

 

[fine_jungles]

God help help us all :lol: interesting...4x2x2 for a antaresia :lol:

 

[pythonmum]

God help help us all :lol: interesting...4x2x2 for a antaresia :lol:

That's the size I have for a pair of Antaresia, so I'm happy. If Jason's info is correct, sizes are very reasonable.

 

[-Matt-]

Jason those sizes are completely reasonable if this information proves to be true. Be intersting to know if racks are going to be outlawed though.

 

[wokka]

Remember that the Draft is a point to work from and not the final Code.The suggestion is that 1 or 2 Anteresia require 2000 cm2 or say 40cm x 50 cm. There are slitherin tubs of that size but of couse there is no reference to particular brands, nor is there suggestions that racks be banned.I have seen collections of 500 plus snakes in a 100m2 biuilding with racks and cages which all comply to the code. The problem relate to some specific detail not across the board.
It is true that some people seem to be against rules for rules sake. I supposed people generally dont like change.

 

[beeman]

The problem i see here is that if there is to much decent from the consultation processby the herp comunity in regards to minumum sizes for different species you will end up getting what is imposed on you by others in that process who dont have an intimate knowledge of reptiles.
I have seen this sort of thing happen in other more valuable industries with disasterous results.
The main thing is to be a pro-active part of the consultation process, Constructive
arguements go far further than refusal of any proposal put up for consideration

To be blunt you either play the game and end up with sizing you can work with or it WILL be forced upon you without the herp comunity input.

 

[Jason]

Jason those sizes are completely reasonable if this information proves to be true. Be intersting to know if racks are going to be outlawed though.

exactly what i think! they are reasonable and fair. im not sure if these sizes are exact but if what i hear is correct i see no prob with the sizes. as i mentioned, if a few on the comity are being difficult it could be devastating to us. if this gets passed onto the DPI we're screwed imo. unless we get an agreement then it is likely this could happen.
The group representing us as a whole need to hear what we are saying and wethere they comply or not they need to remember they represent us all! If the DECC asked me if a 4x2x2 was good for a bhp or large carpets, and if a 3x2x2 was good for a medium carpet, ie GTP, RSP, some jungles and darwins and womas i would say yes... so if these are the proposed sizes whats the issue?

i guess one of my questions is, why have so many of us been lied to about the proposed sizes? why when i asked what sizes are they talking about was i told "you dont want to know, they are rediculous"? these are minimums they are talking about hence a 40 x 50 cm enclosure would be minimum for a pair of antareisa as wokka said, whats wrong with that, i personally keep them in larger but as a minimum that is fine by me.

Those that are part of this group can i ask what some of the issues are that is causing issues? if we know whats the hold up we may be able to put OUR opinions forward, that is the idea anyway, to represent us.

 

[Boondocker]

If the DECC asked me if a 4x2x2 was good for a bhp or large carpets, and if a 3x2x2 was good for a medium carpet, ie GTP, RSP, some jungles and darwins and womas i would say yes... so if these are the proposed sizes whats the issue?

Two foot tall cage mandated for a woma? My opinion is that is prohibitively tall.

 

[Jason]

Remember that the Draft is a point to work from and not the final Code.The suggestion is that 1 or 2 Anteresia require 2000 cm2 or say 40cm x 50 cm. There are slitherin tubs of that size but of couse there is no reference to particular brands, nor is there suggestions that racks be banned.I have seen collections of 500 plus snakes in a 100m2 biuilding with racks and cages which all comply to the code. The problem relate to some specific detail not across the board.
It is true that some people seem to be against rules for rules sake. I supposed people generally dont like change.

i can understand not wanting rules but from what iv now heard the sizes are reasonable so why argue them, just except them and move on with the hobby. personally anyone that keeps 2 antaresia in anything smaller then 40 x 50 is wrong hence it is a good minimum. i think if they managed to get the requirements down to the floor areas of a 2x2, 3x2 and a 4x2 no one would mined. a 4x2 is roughly 7200cm2 the large slitherin racks are about 8500cm2 hence the rack systems would still comply.

may i ask what the 'specific details across the board' are and relate to?

in regards to 'some people seem to be against rules for rules sake,' are they forgetting that they are not just representing themselves? this situation relates to every member of this forum, the other forums, every reptile society and anyone that is considering getting into herps?

would these new rules have some implication to them becoming available in shops and the fear of them going commercial becoming an issue? i would imagen that if they become commercial then some people would obviously be deemed comercial hence any new rules relating to the comercial side of things would possibly apply to them? this could only be an issue if members of the comity are in a position to infact be deemed commercial and that they dont comply? this would again come back to my original point that they represent us all and not just their own interests.

 

[Slateman]

Is this possible?

to the comment ......what iv now heard the sizes are reasonable......

What you heard is exactly my problem. things are discussed behind close doors and some people are getting proposals marked CONFIDENTIAL.

I hope that CIA from united states is not involved. TOP SECRET full stop.
Not publishing the proposal to all of us is wrong. We should have right to express our concerns. That is what I don't like about all this.

And Jason just remember one thing. What you heard could be different to what can happen.

 

[Bushfire]

G'day where does it say the minimum cage sizes are only guidlines in Victoria's Code of Practice? I couldn't find that anywhere in there. I hope you;re right.

It appears Slitherins racks are indeed too small for most pythons according to the minimum size requirements.listed the Victoria Code. Even Slitherins largest "boa" tub is not tall enough for woma pythons accordng to the Code.

When that Code was released, they were handed out to those attending the VHS meeting. To be honest this was the first I heard about it (no discussion/consultations) and was told at the meeting that they are only to be used as a guideline and not to worry too much of the min cage sizes, its intention was to help guide new comers to keeping reptiles and not as an enforcement tool, wildlife officers wont be going around with rulers etc etc. I questioned this further with a wildlife officer while they were conducting a general inspection as I had quite a few stuff in tubs that wouldn't comply with the min size and was told directly they are only guidelines and that there was no penalty units attached to the code, so even if you didn't comply there is no punishment. Things may well have changed since but I still haven't heard of anyone getting into trouble for too small of a cage in Victoria. Looking at it now, if it was enforcible there would of been alot of pet shops and breeders in trouble over it and just maybe it would have helped clean up alot of Pet Shops in Victoria and their general image.



The problem with the current situation in NSW is there is too much smoke and mirrors. Instead of hiding behind the 'we cant tell you as its not for public release' statement, if someone actually comes out and says this is exactly what min sizes they are proposing then all this confusion and fear can stop, they dont have to release the whole document. Till then its all rumours and worrying. They may well turn out reasonable and fair but as it stands we wont know till its too late.